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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2621 - 2012-06-23 16:54:08 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:


You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards.


Man that sounds like it sucks.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2622 - 2012-06-23 16:54:24 UTC
Xython wrote:


CCP is in Goon pockets whenever CCP does something that people don't like.

CCP is the noble hero saving everyone from the evil Goons whenever CCP does somethign that people do like.

Goons are Goons either way.



Minor detail, you left out 'and that absurdly profits goons' on the first one.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2623 - 2012-06-23 16:54:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Maggie Maggie wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
This is called Karma. Karma is a **tch.


There's no such thing. Next thing you'll be saying you believe in elves.


Considering I play a Dark Elvess Sorceress in another PvP MMO...

Edit: proof.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mishraile Viliana
Doomheim
#2624 - 2012-06-23 16:55:26 UTC
Xython wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.


I work at a Casino as a Slot Technician. I repair the slot machines that people waste away college funds on.

If they malfunction -- a CODE ERROR -- and pay out a jackpot they're not supposed to, then that's on the player. They get nothing.

If they are misconfigured -- a DESIGN ERROR -- and they pay out more over time than they are supposed to, that's on us. The player gets everything (although we shut the machine down and swap it out).

The problem here is that this whole thing revolves around a design error. And traditionally, and ethically, CCP can't really nail someone for a design error. That's on them, unfortunately.

Now, what I really would like to do but haven't been able to do is as Aryth and Mynnna for a post-mortem on all this. "How could CCP have designed this feature better, preventing this kind of manipulation, while retaining the same general feel."

My incomplete knowledge of the whole thing would lead me to think that perhaps they should have had a flag set that noticed when the value of a particular item was jumping by X number of percent in a Y days, which would have prevented the market manipulation of prices that lead to the ISK/LP conversion factor hitting 81 isk/lp. But that's just me, I don't know the full specifics of the mechanic.


The way I read the OP is that that they found a way to generate massive amounts of LP, that CCP put a fix that seemed to solve it (discounting dropped items from the calculation) and then they went out of their way to set it up again.

In your comparison that would be. You misconfigure a machine and some clients benefit from it, you find out label it as out of commision while waiting a few days for a replacement to arrive. Just imagine a reason you cannot simple pull that machine out or turn it of and then tell me what you will do with people that play on it while you are waiting for a replacement to get there?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2625 - 2012-06-23 16:56:29 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
There are people coding what their design leader tells them to.

There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan

There's a test server

There are bug hunters

There is players feedback (hohoho)

Then you decide to implement "stuff"

Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above.

Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed?

What the heck? Shocked


Nobody has been penalized


so theyre LYING about the 5 trillion. Ah do they get banned now for rumor mongering as per the OTHER part of that new rule?


If they did it wouldn't be any of your business.


Theyd also dissapear in the thread (which they havent, so Im assuming theyre not lying (for once) which might mean that someone else lied. I cant say who though, its against the rules

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2626 - 2012-06-23 16:58:08 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Considering I play a Dark Elvess Sorceress in another PvP MMO...

Edit: proof.



As a former high elf swordie, I hate your guts. PoS is a *****.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#2627 - 2012-06-23 17:00:19 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


Proof positive the test server is there to hope exploits make it into game

Which made it totally ok to abuse. Right?



No it doesn't, just clearly shows THIS is a waste of time.

Hybrids revamp, gallente revamp, inventory, just a few examples of worthless time spent giving feedback.

brb
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2628 - 2012-06-23 17:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Xython wrote:


I work at a Casino as a Slot Technician. I repair the slot machines that people waste away college funds on.

If they malfunction -- a CODE ERROR -- and pay out a jackpot they're not supposed to, then that's on the player. They get nothing.

If they are misconfigured -- a DESIGN ERROR -- and they pay out more over time than they are supposed to, that's on us. The player gets everything (although we shut the machine down and swap it out).

The problem here is that this whole thing revolves around a design error. And traditionally, and ethically, CCP can't really nail someone for a design error. That's on them, unfortunately.


I also worked at a Casino, Xy, and I can say that we had that exact situation. I can also say that, we didn't pay out on the design error either, as well as firing the employees involved.

(And, yes, they tried to sue, no, they didn't win. Nice thing about being a Native American casino, under the right circumstances, it has to go to tribal court, where outside lawyers can get you in contempt, easy.)
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2629 - 2012-06-23 17:02:40 UTC
Richter Enderas wrote:
I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.


The last time I remember this was the last time I said a few posts back. When the volume of new threads required the forums to be taken down after the open letter and T20

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2630 - 2012-06-23 17:04:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Holander Switzerland wrote:
Actually yeah this is a good point, if people were warning them about this before it left sisi, isn't that pretty much consent for whatever was in the patch.


actually but here is where you are wrong. CCP has always said, always ask before you do something that you are not sure if you are gonna be punished or not. I am here for many years and I must admit i came very close myself of abusing something. If its not cos I asked before, I would have been banned.
If in doubt, always ask CCP is the modo!
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2631 - 2012-06-23 17:04:57 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

The last time I remember this was the last time I said a few posts back. When the volume of new threads required the forums to be taken down after the open letter and T20


I was thinking Mittens brush with permaban and arrest, myself.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2632 - 2012-06-23 17:05:38 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Tallon Sylph wrote:
AureoBroker wrote:
Dear goons; again.
This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.


We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb.


I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way.


You didn't intend for mass insurance fraud (which injected new isk into the economy), pax amarria (which was infinitely available and became profitable to refine for its nocxium, thus depressing the price of nocxium to this day), or PI (enriching many players who bought off of NPC sells prior to their removal) to function the way they did, either, and yet people who took advantage of those things were not punished. You sort of see why many people see this as a massive change in precedent, right?

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#2633 - 2012-06-23 17:06:50 UTC
Posting in a thread...


Also....................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHA.

Currently finding it comical that goons pride themselves on ruining other peoples game. But, give the most delicious of tears when someone (in this case CCP) ruins theirs!

...
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2634 - 2012-06-23 17:06:56 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
I am here for many years and I must admit i came very close myself of abusing something. If its not cos I asked before, I would have been banned.
If in doubt, always ask CCP is the modo!



I was once told by CCP that I had to stop using a certain fitting, because it was too powerful at that time. (Seems it would have let me tank concord)

So, yeah, does not matter if you can, you should always ask 'Should I?'
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#2635 - 2012-06-23 17:07:14 UTC
Danfen Fenix wrote:
Xython wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol
They will OFFICIALLY have lost control


If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right."

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.


Last I checked, I thought the community pretty much thought goons had CCP in their back pockets?

What happened? Something not go your way, so suddenly everyones out to get you ? P


Everyone was out to get us when they thought we had CCP in our pockets. We didn't start that rumor. Now that CCP is coming down on some guys in CFC, the community is smugging over having themselves proven wrong. I don't get it.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#2636 - 2012-06-23 17:08:07 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Posting in a thread...


Also....................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHA.

Currently finding it comical that goons pride themselves on ruining other peoples game. But, give the most delicious of tears when someone (in this case CCP) ruins theirs!


Having your game ruined by a player is one thing. Having it ruined by the company is another. How can you not see this?

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2637 - 2012-06-23 17:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Andrea Roche wrote:
Holander Switzerland wrote:
Actually yeah this is a good point, if people were warning them about this before it left sisi, isn't that pretty much consent for whatever was in the patch.


actually but here is where you are wrong. CCP has always said, always ask before you do something that you are not sure if you are gonna be punished or not. I am here for many years and I must admit i came very close myself of abusing something. If its not cos I asked before, I would have been banned.
If in doubt, always ask CCP is the modo!

if you ask CCP first, they will either say "no" or they will say "yes" and change their mind retroactively.

alliance tournament drama demonstrated the value & reliability of GM answers quite well.

.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2638 - 2012-06-23 17:09:29 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:

Having your game ruined by a player is one thing. Having it ruined by the company is another. How can you not see this?


Maybe because the end result is exactly the same, for the recipient?
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2639 - 2012-06-23 17:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Vera Algaert wrote:

if you ask CCP first, they will either say "no" or they will say "yes" and change their mind retroactively.

alliance tournament drama demonstrated the value & reliability of GM answers quite well.


Always get it by email, rather than in game. If CCP punishes you too harshly for following the GM's decision, there is, actually, precedent for legal action against CCP, regardless of the EULA, at that point.

It hasn't been done specifically with video games, yet, but it has been done with aerospace contracts.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2640 - 2012-06-23 17:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Vera Algaert wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Holander Switzerland wrote:
Actually yeah this is a good point, if people were warning them about this before it left sisi, isn't that pretty much consent for whatever was in the patch.


actually but here is where you are wrong. CCP has always said, always ask before you do something that you are not sure if you are gonna be punished or not. I am here for many years and I must admit i came very close myself of abusing something. If its not cos I asked before, I would have been banned.
If in doubt, always ask CCP is the modo!

if you ask CCP first, they will either say "no" or they will say "yes" and change their mind retroactively.

alliance tournament drama demonstrated the value & reliability of GM answers quite well.


at least you got letter and you are covered so they cant act on you. If you act without asking is the same as the law that says "just cos you did not know its a violation of the law, it does not grants you immunity!. You still violated the law and you cant hide behind the - I did not know the law"
Always ask before acting ! Then you know and you are covered cos you got evidence you asked!