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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2481 - 2012-06-23 15:40:50 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2482 - 2012-06-23 15:41:08 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem.

It is a design flaw.

Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)


How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?


It takes as long as CCP wants it to take. In this case I understand that your boys settled on automatic 1/week index updates referring to a 3-month market average. But it doesn't matter when CCP chooses to update the market price -- as soon as they do, the item is available for abuse.

Furthermore, the market index STAYS THAT WAY just as long as the manipulator in question WANTS it to stay that way, because the item in question has no normal market volume to correct said index. This is the core of what makes this possible.

It isn't a timing issue, it is an issue with using market price indices in a market where not every item has appropriate sales velocity.

CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nobody has been penalized


The problem is that you guys unevenly nuked a bunch of assets (including some that weren't connected) and didn't open any channels of communication to the Faction Five before or after you did so. The first official communication was your post about it being a stopgap measure, nearly 24 hours after the fact.

You can see where that might look bad, and make the players involved (who freely shared all of their information with you) a little bit upset.


We didn't nuke anything. Shared information post exploit is appreciated but let's not pretend this was shared with us prior to being taken advantage of.

What we took and what we'll be doing with it etc. are matters between us and the people who had the assets, not the forum community.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Istyn
Freight Club
#2483 - 2012-06-23 15:41:38 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


Shocking.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2484 - 2012-06-23 15:42:11 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

Or not anymore apparently



Yeah, still. After all, if they didn't, what are all these goon tears that are up to our ankles about then?
Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#2485 - 2012-06-23 15:42:35 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Tomytronic wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean.

Are you going to apologise?


apologise for what? Its you goons thats crying not us.

Apologise for your use of highly inappropriate and offensive language when referring to an internet spaceship game.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2486 - 2012-06-23 15:43:15 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.

Well, they stick around a lot longer without you needing to re-spoof the price. But if I want to abuse the z0r Kazanir mentioned, it's not hard to take some time out of my busy schedule of blowing up scads of them to sell another 1000 to myself at hideously inflated prices. I mean I'm blowing them up all day, I can easily keep the transactions going to keep the price inflated.


Certainly but I can only refer to the system that actually exists today.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
#2487 - 2012-06-23 15:44:21 UTC
Sreegs and goons are BOTH right.

Sreegs, this isn't, and won't be, the last time someone has... used the coding for unintended purposes (See: CONCORD aggression changes)

Goons, This may be what they have been.. intending to do with the code, but... not the spirit of it, if that makes sense.

The good that comes out of all of this, is that the issue is dealt with BEFORE a massive economic collapse in EVE happens.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#2488 - 2012-06-23 15:44:50 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round



Good edit, thanks.
Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2489 - 2012-06-23 15:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazanir
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.

stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz
(edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)

it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused

playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch


Edit: To be clear, you are essentially right. The damage needed fixing, period.

In my opinion, what CCP should have done was:

1. Freeze all the accounts with a 7-day suspension.
2. IMMEDIATELY send e-mails to all of the players affected saying something like:

"Hey guys,

What you did was pretty creative and lots of us think it was cool. Furthermore, we owe you a thank you for coming clean about it. Nevertheless it was a clear design flaw and we can't allow this scale of damage to the economy to remain.

Because of that we're locking your accounts for investigation and we plan to remove most of the ISK/assets gained through this infinite loop. Our goal here isn't to punish you but to remove the majority of the damage that would have been caused. Until our investigation is finished the accounts will have to remain locked but we'll compensate you for the account time."

3. Immediately post the same thing on the forums in press-release form.
4. Have PR flunkies saying the same thing to the press.

No one really is disputing that they do need to fix the economic damage, but they are going about it hamfistedly, with poor public communication, conflicting statements (Xhagen and Manifest talking to the press.)
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2490 - 2012-06-23 15:45:17 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Tomytronic wrote:
I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'.


No, it's hilarious, because it's been a long time since I needed a 5 gallon bucket to gather up all these goon tears. It's like that scene in Alice in Wonderland where Alice cries an ocean.


check out my sig.
Wonder how many steaks could be seasoned with these tears?
Also; 5 trillion vs effectively infinite moon goo funds and they think they have the right to cry?
Entitlement much?

Suck it up and move on

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Holander Switzerland
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2491 - 2012-06-23 15:45:21 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody has been penalized


CCP Sreegs wrote:

That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.




Aryth wrote:
Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.

Status for me right now:
1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks.
1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.

So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.



Hows that for hearsay.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2492 - 2012-06-23 15:45:26 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2493 - 2012-06-23 15:45:42 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

Or not anymore apparently



Yeah, still. After all, if they didn't, what are all these goon tears that are up to our ankles about then?


its gone past that....i have had to learn how to swim in a very short time. Granted i am doing doggy stile to stay afloat. Looking for a land atm! Wish me luck!
Istyn
Freight Club
#2494 - 2012-06-23 15:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Istyn
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.


So why do you deploy stuff before fixing it then blame the players and/or break the game?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2495 - 2012-06-23 15:47:02 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
There are people coding what their design leader tells them to.

There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan

There's a test server

There are bug hunters

There is players feedback (hohoho)

Then you decide to implement "stuff"

Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above.

Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed?

What the heck? Shocked


Nobody has been penalized


so theyre LYING about the 5 trillion. Ah do they get banned now for rumor mongering as per the OTHER part of that new rule?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#2496 - 2012-06-23 15:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia
Istyn wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.


So why do you deploy stuff before fixing it then blame the players?


Why can't people do everything perfect the first time?

I always do. even my post edits were planned in the first draft

edit: ccp has clearly failed and the game is now over for not sending goons enough emails to explain they were fixing the thing goons just spent 60 pages on eve-o gloating about
Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2497 - 2012-06-23 15:48:23 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.


I'm aware of this; what I'm saying I have secondhand from Aryth, I don't know to whom he tried to speak or where he posted, maybe he'll clarify later.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2498 - 2012-06-23 15:48:29 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Tomytronic wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
I think this is far worst than the word "exploit". The word "exploit" is far too weak or linient of a word to use. I say goons "raped" the market and now are claiming no fault. This to me is helarious.
Take all their isk and assets away CCP and send a message out that the gloves are off for anyone trying to do the same!!

I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'.

it does not imply the meaning you intend to put. I specifically said "the market"! Dont try to make this into something else....

If you intend to use such inappropriate language to describe the actions of people in an internet spaceships game, then you should possibly sit back and reflect on your communication skills. I think you should retract your word, apologise and make your point again using different language that does not offend, nor hyperbolise.


like all those words used as adjectives that are racial slurs versus the Jewish people?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Istyn
Freight Club
#2499 - 2012-06-23 15:48:35 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

Why can't people do everything perfect the first time?

I always do. even my post edits were planned in the first draft


Damn right.

edit: totally typo'd.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2500 - 2012-06-23 15:48:55 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.

stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz
(edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)

it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused

playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch


Edit: To be clear, you are essentially right. The damage needed fixing, period.

In my opinion, what CCP should have done was:

1. Freeze all the accounts with a 7-day suspension.
2. IMMEDIATELY send e-mails to all of the players affected saying something like:

"Hey guys,

What you did was pretty creative and lots of us think it was cool. Furthermore, we owe you a thank you for coming clean about it. Nevertheless it was a clear design flaw and we can't allow this scale of damage to the economy to remain.

Because of that we're locking your accounts for investigation and we plan to remove most of the ISK/assets gained through this infinite loop. Our goal here isn't to punish you but to remove the majority of the damage that would have been caused. Until our investigation is finished the accounts will have to remain locked but we'll compensate you for the account time."

3. Immediately post the same thing on the forums in press-release form.
4. Have PR flunkies saying the same thing to the press.

No one really is disputing that they do need to fix the economic damage, but they are going about it hamfistedly, with poor public communication, conflicting statements (Xhagen and Manifest talking to the press.)


What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012