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Making nullsec vibrant again

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pussnheels
Viziam
#1041 - 2012-06-25 17:11:56 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

okay mr goon troll let us hear what is your solution to this dillema is because the only thing you seem to be good at is playing the selfish arrogant whatever

okay sure let me retype all the suggestions I've made in this thread already because you're too busy sperging about nullsec to read, I'll get right on that

who do you think you are , you come in here , critize everybody who post a idea and in most cases outright insult their intelligence
but never add something constructive to this debate

If there is a problem with EVE it is that there are people like you playing this game

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1042 - 2012-06-25 17:13:03 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

okay mr goon troll let us hear what is your solution to this dillema is because the only thing you seem to be good at is playing the selfish arrogant whatever

okay sure let me retype all the suggestions I've made in this thread already because you're too busy sperging about nullsec to read, I'll get right on that

who do you think you are , you come in here , critize everybody who post a idea and in most cases outright insult their intelligence
but never add something constructive to this debate

If there is a problem with EVE it is that there are people like you playing this game


What thread are you reading?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#1043 - 2012-06-25 17:13:33 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
who do you think you are , you come in here , critize everybody who post a idea and in most cases outright insult their intelligence
but never add something constructive to this debate

If there is a problem with EVE it is that there are people like you playing this game

~hard trollin'~

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1044 - 2012-06-25 17:22:49 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
The relationship between the PVPers and the rest has to be a 2-way street. Both sides need to benefit. Very few people are going ot bother going to null and setting their business up there knowing that the barbarian hordes are going to burn it all down. Any business needs some measure of stability in order to grow.

It's looking to me as though the fix is to look at the 'carebears' (I'm not using that in a derogatory sense) as a resource. Null alliances should want miners and industrialists and explorers in their space. Their stations should be taking a cut of transactions, the refineries taking a cut of the ore and so on. Viewed this way, it would be in the interests of the alliances to keep their bears safe, and also in their interests to destroy the bears of rivals, or non-affiliated bears.



Finally. You see clearly. Very well stated.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1045 - 2012-06-25 17:33:56 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

okay mr goon troll let us hear what is your solution to this dillema is because the only thing you seem to be good at is playing the selfish arrogant whatever

okay sure let me retype all the suggestions I've made in this thread already because you're too busy sperging about nullsec to read, I'll get right on that

who do you think you are , you come in here , critize everybody who post a idea and in most cases outright insult their intelligence
but never add something constructive to this debate

If there is a problem with EVE it is that there are people like you playing this game

You're funny, keep on sperging.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1046 - 2012-06-25 17:38:31 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
The relationship between the PVPers and the rest has to be a 2-way street. Both sides need to benefit. Very few people are going ot bother going to null and setting their business up there knowing that the barbarian hordes are going to burn it all down. Any business needs some measure of stability in order to grow.


There just isn't enough economic activity in nullsec to justify a bigger population. The military infrastructure to protect them exists. A lot of people would like more opportunity shoot things. But the infrastructure to support industrial activities just isn't there, and even adding our own infrastructure wouldn't mean much because what the NPCs offer is just as good or better.

...

But there is no compelling reason to do much research, invention or production in nullsec, and consequently there are few market speculators to provide capital to keep those activities running. All in all, that means less people hauling stuff back and forth or even logging in to their nullsec characters. Even if an alliance could provide top notch security, the industrial and research capacity sucks. Highsec on the other hand has unbeatable police bots and way more station services. The only downside to highsec operations is grinding standing, but that is more dull than difficult.


Whoah whoah whoah there cowboy. The _only_ disadvantage in null is refining. Manufacturing slots on a POS are more productive (either in time or minerals) than highsec stations. There are months long backlogs for research type jobs in hisec stations (if you can even get in the queue). There are some things that can not even be built in hisec. PI can not be effectively performed in hisec. etc etc etc.

It seems to me that the whole non-grinding portion of Eve *is* in null. And yet, null is just a place for warfare. There is no room for _anything_ else. Fix that, and null will become the place where people go after learning about the game in empire space.
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1047 - 2012-06-25 18:03:44 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
strikefour wrote:
Perhaps if you would invite carebears and protect them, you would not care about the yield of the refining at a POS since THEY are doing all of the nasty work that you do not like? Oh, right. Carebears are strictly for feeding off of by killing. It is simply NOT possible in your primitive aggressive brain to feed off of carebears in a sustainable manner like all modern societies do.

Holy ****** strawman, fatman.

First off, I've no idea where you've gotten this ridiculous idea that "carebears are strictly for feeding off of by killing", this is a ******** interpretation and you should feel bad for even thinking this. The reason I want carebears to come to null is so we can stop being beholden to Jita to the degree we are now, and it would mean that our industry would be interdictable in a way it currently is not, meaning an alliance with the most complete package (industry, logistics and warfare) would be most likely to be on top, instead of just warfare and logistics as it is now. Obviously, as a result there would be more targets for roaming gangs, but this is, and I'll emphasize, not the main reasoning behind this desire. But I guess you're going to interpret this as "yes, we want more carebears in null so we can kill them". I'll just refer you to the last paragraph, then.

As to "the yield of the refining at a POS", would you like to sit feed a POS refinery for a 75% return, when you can just rightclick and select refine in a station? Would you like to have to expend much more energy and isk just to barely surpass one hisec system's manufacturing, research, copying, invention capabilities etc ... in a whole region?

No?

Funny, nor would I, and neither would I expect anyone else to, either. But then again, I suppose you think carebears are supposed to be some sort of poor slave we just kick around and force to make stuff for us, and then kill, and expect to come back and do it all again. Honestly, I can't make up strawmen this badly, I should applaud you for it.

strikefour wrote:
-1 unintelligent moron.

Yes, yes you most definitely look like one, with posts like this.



Awesome. Let's rock. :)

If carebears are not for feeding off of, then ... why do you feed off of them? You go in to hisec and kill them because they are not in nullsec. The behavior is a feeding behavior. You feel the need to hunt and kill the helpless. I am merely describing behavior that I have witnessed. I am not saying it is evil. Wolves and sheep. Are the wolves evil? Are the sheep good? The whole thing is pointless to describe in such terms. I am unsure why you are getting upset over describing your behavior as feeding, or even why you think it is some sort of strawman argument, but meh.

Concerning manufacturing capabilities. POS modules give a bonus in time or materials to everything built as compared to station slots. Even better, in just one POS that I run (shut down down due to cancelling my accounts), I can have MORE manufacturing capability than even the best hisec systems. A single ammo module will allow you to run 5 slots. You can have dozens of ammo modules in a single POS (or you could spread that out to ship building, module building, etc). Do not even try to cry about manufacturing capabilities in a POS vs a station.

Another huge bonus is all the materials needed for manufacturing are right there in nullsec. Moon goo is needed for T2 modules. You can not get moon goo in hisec. megacyte, zydrine, etc are absolutely necessary for manufacturing. Again, you can not get those in hisec. Surely it is easier to transfer those materials a few jumps within nullsec than to transfer them via dozens of jumps out to hisec?

That leaves refining, which is what my main point to you was. Yes, refining in nullsec without a fully upgraded outpost is dreadful. I can get 100% yield with my skills in a fully upgraded outpost. In a POS based refinery, the yield is utterly terrible.

The one aspect of your argument, concerning yields that I can not refute is that a POS refinery takes absolutely forever to chew through a good sized chunk of ore. However, to mitigate that, set up a POS that has nothing but refinery modules and then charge to use it. All you have to do is protect the POS itself. Let the carebears do all of the mining and refining and charge them for the privilege.
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1048 - 2012-06-25 18:06:43 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
strikefour wrote:
Nullsec has choke points to even get to it. This is why "nobody" goes there.

Let me repeat that: Nullsec has choke points to even get into it.

Why are these "gateways" there? What game mechanic are they supposed to be encouraging? All it encouraged me to do was stay away from nullsec because if you guard those choke points properly, nobody can get in or out without having a larger fleet.


This video is titled "finding fights with the map". What you can find, you can also avoid. I flew to and from Venal from highsec about a month ago; first thing I did was avoid two obvious gate camps. Once in Venal I took a 'side entrance' to a system a few times rather than run through a camped gate: from BV-1JG, I went 0-BFTQ > SS-GED > AJCJ-1 > 6NJ8-V, rather than jump BV-1JG > 6NJ8-V.

Plotting a course from Domain to Stain, I routed around the perpetually supercamped HED-GP (AFAICT by the map; never been there) and only died once from lazily warping gate-to-gate. I can't fly anything with a covops cloak or an interdiction nullifier.

You want to go to nullsec? Then go. There aren't huge barriers of entry. You can always fly right into Providence, or join an academy and get escorted to the edge of their jump bridge network in lowsec.

But you may find when you get there that some parts of it kinda suck, and you may reckon it better for you to make your money in highsec. That's what this thread is about.



All pointless. I can do sightseeing just fine in null and have done so. Even went to find some fights in null. The point is that the mechanics ensure that the ONLY thing you can do in null is see the sights or fight.
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1049 - 2012-06-25 18:18:23 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
I advise you to realize that this type of activity is not limited to JUST ONE PERSON. Love how you guys go on and on about, "Damn those carebears thinking this is a solo game when it is a multi-player game! MAKE FRIENDS!!!" Then shout that moon probing entire areas HAS to be done by one guy.

Please explain.


Marconus Orion wrote:
None of you want to have a crack at this?

So I take it you're really interested in trying to promote what can only be the worst solution to the "tech problem" imaginable, then. Very well.

First of all, you're going to have to have a certain set of people for the job. It's going to be boring as ****, so chances are once you're beyond a certain size people are going to expect some form for compensation or they'll just go do other things which'll actually pay them directly. Then you have to wait for them to scan all over the place, because it's timeconsuming as ****. Then the POS guys have to run around and take down old POSes and put up new POSes and setup all the mining chains etc. This'll be something which would become more or less a constant activity if you're trying to maintain even a moderate size empire, unless you're going to say that moons deplete every 30/60 days on the dot.

And regardless of all this having to be in place, there'll be quite a lot of downtime on the moons, which means that if you thought T2 prices were expensive before, heh.

But hey, let's not let these minor quibbles stand in the way of a bad idea.


You are correct. I am unsure why anyone brings up moons in a discussion about making nullsec vibrant. The only reason to bring it up is as a tool to break up established power. This is not the right way to do it and screwing with moon mechanics is not a productive discussion in this thread because of that.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1050 - 2012-06-25 18:20:27 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
You're funny, keep on sperging.

Internet forum sperg is really the best sperg.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1051 - 2012-06-25 18:31:37 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
ReiAnn wrote:
Nerfing high sec is only going to force people out of game.

An assertion made by many but backed up by zero evidence. I on the other hand propose removing something that actually has an effect of forcing people out of game (NPC corps) according to CCP.


My accounts are cancelled. My main has already expired. This one will expire soon. There is your evidence.

If hisec were not such a PITA and/or null more accessible, I might have been more willing to put up with the crappy bugs that I have been tolerating for 6+ years. I swear to god I love playing Eve but it is getting way too tedious. Hisec is almost as bad as nullsec now. Good bye. Enjoy shooting NPCs since that will be all that will be left.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1052 - 2012-06-25 18:45:35 UTC
strikefour wrote:
My accounts are cancelled. My main has already expired. This one will expire soon. There is your evidence.

If hisec were not such a PITA and/or null more accessible, I might have been more willing to put up with the crappy bugs that I have been tolerating for 6+ years. I swear to god I love playing Eve but it is getting way too tedious. Hisec is almost as bad as nullsec now. Good bye. Enjoy shooting NPCs since that will be all that will be left.

By the sound of it, you should remember to set a long skill. Eg: A Battleship V, JDC V, etc.

You might want to refrain from letting others have your stuff, as well. You'll be back :)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1053 - 2012-06-25 18:53:45 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
as if hisec isn't already profitable enough to dissuade people from moving out, yes let's add moon mining as well. why don't we make PI output the same as in nullsec as well?



Who cares if hisec is profitable if nobody wants to play the damned game anymore? You guys are focussing on the wrong areas here. The game should be FUN.

Some of the most exciting times I have had in this game, where I had adrenaline pumping and a heart rate over 100 BPM while sitting was in making a narrow escape with a hauler under attack or barely winning (or even losing) a fight.

OMFG, I was in low doing a roam with 2 casual friends looking for a fight. The "FC" (hard to use that term when there is only 3 of us in the fleet) found someone and we warped in on them. They had the advantage through higher speeds and we were getting smacked on. I warped out in the direction I assumed the person had warped in from and then guessed their speed and their location when my warp would end when heading back and I ended my warp RIGHT ON TOP OF THEM. Holy mother of god that was about orgasmic. I immediately tackled them and tried to hold them while my team slow-boated to our position. Unfortunately, I died a moment before they could kill him... but what an awesome combat!

That is a game worth playing. Moon goo, PI, etc are merely carrots to get people to go places to encourage this. Sitting in null sucking tech out of moons or sitting in hisec running L4s are the way to finance this.

So why doesn't it (the fun stuff) happen more often?

Game mechanics and human nature. Since human nature can not be "fixed", game mechanics MUST be fixed.

Depressing the means of financing this kind of game play out of one region and into another _can_ be part fixing things but it is a fine tuning mechanism. Using it as a bat will only make people quit. (/me raises his hand).

Seriously, the one thing that could be used as a "silver bullet" for this problem is insurance. Cash flow is the main reason I am not out there losing ships every day. But wait, it is not 100% that simple. The reason I need so much cash is that I am guaranteed to lose almost every single combat since most of the time, it is never a fair fight... so I need a ship that is somewhat expensive (no factions mods or anything, just T2 stuff) to even have a fighting chance.

As long as it costs me a minimum of 40m (after insurance payout) per fight, I will not be doing it very often... yeah yeah, go on and on about rifter combat and spending 2m per fight and I will go on and on about how finding a rifter-worthy fight is incredibly rare.
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#1054 - 2012-06-25 18:58:15 UTC
Ah.. I see this thread is still going.

I left around page 23 where we were having legit discussions about NullSec.... I see there's been 30 more pages since then.

Kimmi or Zim, worth reading?
pussnheels
Viziam
#1055 - 2012-06-25 19:05:08 UTC
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Ah.. I see this thread is still going.

I left around page 23 where we were having legit discussions about NullSec.... I see there's been 30 more pages since then.

Kimmi or Zim, worth reading?


nah just a goon and his puppy who think they own this game and that everybody else should leave

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1056 - 2012-06-25 19:06:12 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
strikefour wrote:
My accounts are cancelled. My main has already expired. This one will expire soon. There is your evidence.

If hisec were not such a PITA and/or null more accessible, I might have been more willing to put up with the crappy bugs that I have been tolerating for 6+ years. I swear to god I love playing Eve but it is getting way too tedious. Hisec is almost as bad as nullsec now. Good bye. Enjoy shooting NPCs since that will be all that will be left.

By the sound of it, you should remember to set a long skill. Eg: A Battleship V, JDC V, etc.

You might want to refrain from letting others have your stuff, as well. You'll be back :)


Actually, I already have all the battleships at V on my main account and gallente battlehsip V on this one. Just finishing up all the jump skills to V now.

And yeah, I may be back. I did give away half a billion ISK already though. Heh.
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#1057 - 2012-06-25 19:10:00 UTC
strikefour wrote:
OMFG, I was in low doing a roam with 2 casual friends looking for a fight. The "FC" (hard to use that term when there is only 3 of us in the fleet) found someone and we warped in on them. They had the advantage through higher speeds and we were getting smacked on. I warped out in the direction I assumed the person had warped in from and then guessed their speed and their location when my warp would end when heading back and I ended my warp RIGHT ON TOP OF THEM. Holy mother of god that was about orgasmic. I immediately tackled them and tried to hold them while my team slow-boated to our position. Unfortunately, I died a moment before they could kill him... but what an awesome combat!

That is a game worth playing. Moon goo, PI, etc are merely carrots to get people to go places to encourage this. Sitting in null sucking tech out of moons or sitting in hisec running L4s are the way to finance this.


It is generally bad form to quote oneself but I thought editing would not be useful.

I also enjoy the market PvP. I make more money doing that than L4 missions which is why I stopped doing L4s for money. You do not get adrenaline rushes from market PvP though. Heh. :)
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1058 - 2012-06-25 19:31:28 UTC
strikefour wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
An assertion made by many but backed up by zero evidence. I on the other hand propose removing something that actually has an effect of forcing people out of game (NPC corps) according to CCP.


My accounts are cancelled. My main has already expired. This one will expire soon. There is your evidence.

If hisec were not such a PITA and/or null more accessible, I might have been more willing to put up with the crappy bugs that I have been tolerating for 6+ years. I swear to god I love playing Eve but it is getting way too tedious. Hisec is almost as bad as nullsec now. Good bye. Enjoy shooting NPCs since that will be all that will be left.

So the recent nerfs to highsec (zero) made it too 'tedious' to market PVP and now you're leaving, and that's your evidence that nerfing highsec will lead to less subs?
Tarku Huhtsu
Doomheim
#1059 - 2012-06-25 19:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarku Huhtsu
Sorry double post wrong quote
Tarku Huhtsu
Doomheim
#1060 - 2012-06-25 19:46:51 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
I think I can agree with this. You don't want highsec publords dictating what sorts of changes would be good or bad for nullsec anymore than highsec publords want the elitists from nullsec dictating what sorts of changes would be good or bad for highsec. That sounds fair enough. I'll stop offering suggestions. I am so glad we could work this out.

Yeah, see, the problem with your interpretation of this is that while people who identify themselves as hisec players generally have just experienced hisec, those who identify themselves as nullsec people generally have experienced a far broader aspect of the game. And when we point out hisec as being "too good a baseline", we do actually have a basis in facts and empirical evidence to show this as true, whereas hisec people generally have absolutely no clue what actually goes on in nullsec.

Like, for example, jumpbridges, which hisec pubbies will readily claim is one of the major power projection tools goonswarm has with which to rule the entire universe with.


Sadly the attitude you display is the root of the problem, their are too many Goons with grand egos, always need to be right and the world is all wrong, you don't have a problem, the world does. Ergo you know everything about the game, you have experienced everything and you know best. I'll give you this you keep on message, but is a message anchored in mimicry, repetition and regurgitation to convince others of your arguments. Glib, shallow and superficial arguments with plenty of fine words and lots of form - but there's no substance.