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Making nullsec vibrant again

First post
Author
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#581 - 2012-06-20 23:47:04 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:

Maybe you are that kind of PvPer who sucks and wants easy targets but that is not everyone.

i am indeed!

but you're not thinking it through. say you take a roaming gang to someones space. let us say you are some weird hounourabule space jouster and wish to fight their defense fleet, not their ratters

how do you get a defense fleet up?

you kill their ratters and drag their entrails around so they form up and try to kill you

no ratters, no entrails, no fight

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2012-06-20 23:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Maybe you are that kind of PvPer who sucks and wants easy targets but that is not everyone.

I'm sure you thought this was a very, very edgy post, but you're apparently trying to ignore the fact that having more people in nullsec just bumbling around doing stuff (and thus more targets) is a good thing.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#583 - 2012-06-20 23:47:58 UTC
Possible doublepost but vOv, as to the stealing Moongoo idea, its very similiar in scope to what we currently have with POCOs, the only issue being that they still have way too much eHP for small gang fleets to effectively get in, pew pew, and get out. Its a very tough balancing act.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#584 - 2012-06-20 23:48:31 UTC
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Possible doublepost but vOv, as to the stealing Moongoo idea, its very similiar in scope to what we currently have with POCOs, the only issue being that they still have way too much eHP for small gang fleets to effectively get in, pew pew, and get out. Its a very tough balancing act.

They have timers.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#585 - 2012-06-20 23:48:55 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:

The way to fill a PvP area is to make the PvP awesome, there are millions of PvPers in the world who will play if the PvP doesn't suck.

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

the 0.0 pvp ecosystem must have gank targets it is not a realm for hounorable space jousting

you fill it by giving the low-level gank targets a reason to be there despite the ganking, then the higher level predators prey on them then higher level predators prey on those, and soon you have a viable ecosystem again

when the prey die out, the pvpers do as well because what a pvper wants to do is win: you bait them out by giving them a target to devour


Maybe you are that kind of PvPer who sucks and wants easy targets but that is not everyone.


This is every PvPer

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#586 - 2012-06-20 23:49:30 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
but you're not thinking it through. say you take a roaming gang to someones space. let us say you are some weird hounourabule space jouster and wish to fight their defense fleet, not their ratters

how do you get a defense fleet up?

you kill their ratters and drag their entrails around so they form up and try to kill you

no ratters, no entrails, no fight

No entrails, oh my.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#587 - 2012-06-20 23:49:30 UTC
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Possible doublepost but vOv, as to the stealing Moongoo idea, its very similiar in scope to what we currently have with POCOs, the only issue being that they still have way too much eHP for small gang fleets to effectively get in, pew pew, and get out. Its a very tough balancing act.

yeah pocos are not a bad idea just the ehp is too high and really what's the point? they have to halt exports for a day or two to throw a new one up. meanwhile you shot a structure wit your gang: who is the real loser here?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#588 - 2012-06-20 23:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
TL; DR: Nullsec is boring.

I can only speak for myself, but in my case, it's pure desinterest in 0.0 at the current state.

- Any significant PvP involves timers, massive EHP and thus blobs and powerblocks. Force projection is ****-easy. Whilst CCP brought in numerous mechanics to nerf bigger=better, there still is no single disadvantage to bring bigger numbers.

- I've not been interested to fly around in blobs anymore for years and except for catching some ratters (yay - have a cookie for killing that ratting carrier), small gangs are pointless.

- I'm poor by current standards, but I have enough isk so no amount of isk/h is going to encourage me to join a powerblock (and I'd never consider renters even a remote option).

- Dominion mechanics made nullsec bleed personalities and people to 'hate' (in an ingame sense) - they're all faceless pets of someone I don't care about. Last time I took a short stint to nullsec was killing the old NC because I despised them - not because I enjoyed it. I was out as soon as it was was clear the DRF would win and the NC was gone for good. Now all that is left is the CFC, which I perceive as advocates of nullsec despite I used to hate goons years ago and some faceless bittervet alliances that are heavily infiltrated by each other whilst demanding break of information privacy laws just to check them out.

- Bubbles and camps are easily avoided, but I'm just tired of using the same dated D-scan for years.

Not a big issue - there are other areas to play in, but I don't give a rats arse about current 0.0.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#589 - 2012-06-20 23:49:58 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Possible doublepost but vOv, as to the stealing Moongoo idea, its very similiar in scope to what we currently have with POCOs, the only issue being that they still have way too much eHP for small gang fleets to effectively get in, pew pew, and get out. Its a very tough balancing act.

They have timers.


This as well, sorry forgot about that.
dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#590 - 2012-06-20 23:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: dontbanmebro
Adelphie wrote:
This is quickly getting back on track - I like.

One thing which a few people have said on this page is that there needs to be more incentive to do small gang pvp. One of the most compelling features I have heard is the idea of raidable moon mining pos's where a small gang can effectively attack, and steal, moon minerals from larger alliances. Obviously this would have to be well balanced and thought out, but I think it has legs.

Gives small gangs a reason to to attack hostile space - gives alliances reasons to defend.

What are peoples thoughts on this?


TL;DR yes, but likely something less tz sensitive.

The general idea is great, and exactly what CCP is talking about with "farms and fields". Team A builds something. Team B uses violence to disrupt and/or leech off what team A has built. Team A either develops a military response or hires Team C to use violence against Team B.

Boom, you have content.

My guess is that it won;t be moon-mining because then you have the time zone issue, forcing everyone to be pan-global collectives. A far more likely system will be something where you "spool up" value extraction in your space during your prime activity times, which raiders can then interfere with and/or siphon off. For example, as EU tz alliance A hits its prime-time, all the ratting "spools" up the payouts. Then EU tz alliance B comes in to A's space and drives them out of their "spooled-up" and highly lucrative anoms (or whatever) and starts running them. Now A can either fight back, in which case B gets a fight, or they can hide like cowards, in which case B gets fat cash and "spools" down A's anoms (or whatever).
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#591 - 2012-06-20 23:53:05 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:

Maybe you are that kind of PvPer who sucks and wants easy targets but that is not everyone.

i am indeed!

but you're not thinking it through. say you take a roaming gang to someones space. let us say you are some weird hounourabule space jouster and wish to fight their defense fleet, not their ratters

how do you get a defense fleet up?

you kill their ratters and drag their entrails around so they form up and try to kill you

no ratters, no entrails, no fight


So in addition to being bad at PvP you are also socially challenged and unable to join large fleets.

Changing EvE to suit your limits is not a good idea, you might be better off in WoW or a single player game as you seem to have a solo focus.

I'm an American, English is my second language...

Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#592 - 2012-06-20 23:53:28 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:

The way to fill a PvP area is to make the PvP awesome, there are millions of PvPers in the world who will play if the PvP doesn't suck.

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

the 0.0 pvp ecosystem must have gank targets it is not a realm for hounorable space jousting

you fill it by giving the low-level gank targets a reason to be there despite the ganking, then the higher level predators prey on them then higher level predators prey on those, and soon you have a viable ecosystem again

when the prey die out, the pvpers do as well because what a pvper wants to do is win: you bait them out by giving them a target to devour


That's a pretty interesting idea. But in real life, an ecosystem works because once the alpha predator dies, it becomes food for others. I don't see an equivalent for that in Eve or even a real equivalent to scavengers living off the kills of the alpha predators (I guess some kinda protected salvage ships would be it).


Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#593 - 2012-06-20 23:53:55 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Personally, the readings I get from 0.0 are not encouraging. I think what will I do in 0.0? Apparently, not mining, not industry, and not missionning. I don't really enjoy PvP and I wouldn't want to be doing it all the time.

Mining's still doable, it just requires more effort and carries more risk after you've actually mined the ore. Missioning is replaced by sanctums and havens etc, and do pay more than L4s, but again, more risk.

Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Besides, if you nerf L4s, then how will people pay for their PvP?

Moving out to nullsec and do things there is one thing. you can do, it's just not so attractive right now because of L4s' lack of effort and risk.



Serious non trolling question for you,

Your ship carries limited ammo and has limited capacity, once deep in null if your not part of the local alliance or a pet, most players don't want to keep doing that trek into and out of 0.0 every night (or when ever you play). That's probably more of a bar than anything else.

Being chased around 0.0 by players and those sorts of risks aren't really an issue (actualy makes it fun), Running bottle neck gate camps (regularly) isn't.

What's a way around that ?


Tal



Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#594 - 2012-06-20 23:54:36 UTC
yeah basically just buff 0.0 income for the poor working-class schmo but make that buff destroyable or stealable, presto better 0.0

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#595 - 2012-06-20 23:55:10 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
So in addition to being bad at PvP you are also socially challenged and unable to join large fleets.

Changing EvE to suit your limits is not a good idea, you might be better off in WoW or a single player game as you seem to have a solo focus.



I'm gonna break my own rule here of no condescending comments but.. do you know how to read?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#596 - 2012-06-20 23:55:28 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Your ship carries limited ammo and has limited capacity, once deep in null if your not part of the local alliance or a pet, most players don't want to keep doing that trek into and out of 0.0 every night (or when ever you play). That's probably more of a bar than anything else.

fly amarr

presto problem solved

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#597 - 2012-06-20 23:56:35 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Serious non trolling question for you,

Your ship carries limited ammo and has limited capacity, once deep in null if your not part of the local alliance or a pet, most players don't want to keep doing that trek into and out of 0.0 every night (or when ever you play). That's probably more of a bar than anything else.

Being chased around 0.0 by players and those sorts of risks aren't really an issue (actualy makes it fun), Running bottle neck gate camps (regularly) isn't.

What's a way around that ?


That depends, are we talking NPC 0.0 here or Sov?
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#598 - 2012-06-20 23:56:51 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:

Maybe you are that kind of PvPer who sucks and wants easy targets but that is not everyone.

i am indeed!

but you're not thinking it through. say you take a roaming gang to someones space. let us say you are some weird hounourabule space jouster and wish to fight their defense fleet, not their ratters

how do you get a defense fleet up?

you kill their ratters and drag their entrails around so they form up and try to kill you

no ratters, no entrails, no fight


So in addition to being bad at PvP you are also socially challenged and unable to join large fleets.

Changing EvE to suit your limits is not a good idea, you might be better off in WoW or a single player game as you seem to have a solo focus.



I think you're missing the point of the post (perhaps deliberately, but I'll bite anyway). People need a reason to fight, and attacking the weak-links (e.g. lone ratters or miners) provokes defense fleets to get real fights. This has been the cornerstone of pvp for a long time, and to say otherwise is bordering on ignorant.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#599 - 2012-06-20 23:57:11 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Your ship carries limited ammo and has limited capacity, once deep in null if your not part of the local alliance or a pet, most players don't want to keep doing that trek into and out of 0.0 every night (or when ever you play). That's probably more of a bar than anything else.

1) Lazorz
2) Go through a wormhole, restock, go back.
3) 2nd char which is a fueltruck.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#600 - 2012-06-20 23:57:21 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
That's a pretty interesting idea. But in real life, an ecosystem works because once the alpha predator dies, it becomes food for others. I don't see an equivalent for that in Eve or even a real equivalent to scavengers living off the kills of the alpha predators (I guess some kinda protected salvage ships would be it).


The base level is rats and roids.