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Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#41 - 2012-06-21 03:31:37 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Have the SD require a certain amount of capacitor.

There's nothing that needs to be addressed, the only concern here is people not getting a kill recorded. Grow up.


i didn't realize presenting ideas meant someone had to grow up. Try again junior.

Presenting the idea is not a reason to grow up, any new idea good or bad is a good thing because one side or the other might learn something.

These guys need to grow up because they're more concerned about their precious kill-mails than what true function the self destruct serves.


The true function seems to be denying the aggressor a killmail. That is the issue at hand. If my guys and I go out, spend time scouting, putting a fleet together, and jumping on some caps, I would like for that to be recorded. If those caps SD because of us, I would like that recorded. If those caps wipe the floor with our fleet, I would like that recorded.

It has nothing to do about e-peen for a lot of us. It's about being able to look back and being like "damn, that was a great fight" or "wow, we got curbstomped". It's simply for us to keep a visible record of what really happened. I wouldn't care if the killmail showed no mods or value, but showed that the pilot SD'd and showed the aggressing pilots as being the reason for it. That's all.

No trolling please
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-06-21 05:28:52 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Have the SD require a certain amount of capacitor.

There's nothing that needs to be addressed, the only concern here is people not getting a kill recorded. Grow up.


i didn't realize presenting ideas meant someone had to grow up. Try again junior.

Presenting the idea is not a reason to grow up, any new idea good or bad is a good thing because one side or the other might learn something.

These guys need to grow up because they're more concerned about their precious kill-mails than what true function the self destruct serves.

and people who self destruct in the middle of a fight do it because they are more concerned with their loss record than they are actually fighting... ... so in all honesty maybe SD is being abused

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-06-21 06:15:10 UTC
By the sounds of it they do it to reduce the dropped loot to exactly zero, and as someone so kindly stated unless the opposition is using a dread they're unlikely to have dented it enough for it to be considered a kill at all.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#44 - 2012-06-21 06:40:36 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
and as someone so kindly stated unless the opposition is using a dread they're unlikely to have dented it enough for it to be considered a kill at all.


Not true at all. We had 2 into structure when they SD'd, without us fielding any cap support.

No trolling please
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#45 - 2012-06-21 07:28:39 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Roime wrote:
It's lame, but a necessary mechanic to exist in game. However, it needs adjusting to minimize the faggotry.

My suggestion to change the SD mechanics:

SD not possible inside a POS forcefield
- SD destroys your pod
- timer dependent on ship class, longer time for bigger ships
- SD generates a lossmail, if it is performed under aggression timer

These changes would allow people to SD their ships as usual, but not to prevent the facts from getting on the killboards.


EDIT: Sin Pew's lossmail only suggestion makes more sense.

What, huh, what the ****? The whole point of an escape pod is to escape in exactly this kind of circumstance.

As it stands 2 minutes is a long time to sit with your thumb up your ass whilst an attacking force is pounding at your shields. If they're too **** to kill you in that time then you should quite legitimately be able to blow your own ship up by choice without adding a line of text to their gaming blog.


If you want just to escape, you can eject from your ship and leave.

.
Myz Toyou
Nekkid Inc.
#46 - 2012-06-21 08:33:46 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:


These guys need to grow up because they're more concerned about their precious kill-mails than what true function the self destruct serves.


My only concern is that there is no record of the event, not for your CEO, not for your corpmates, not for the agressor and also not for any future recruites who fall for your UBER advertisement saying how pro you are at fighting all invaders back etc but in reality the only thing you do when someone enters your WH is onlining hardeners at your tower, man the bombers and start the SD faggotry of your Cap fleet inside the forcefield.
MadbaM
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-06-21 09:00:53 UTC
SD is one way of people being ganked to take some control and grief the people griefing them and I have no problem with it. Yes its annoying but i make do with local tears fraps and grabs. People crying about how small ships not get a chance to SD so nether should caps your wrong. Show me a sub cap that takes that long to align then warp and show me one that can fit a mod that traps it on field for 5min and ill maybe agree with you.

But yes i think something needs to change, there needs to be a counter and there is usually a counter for everything in EVE that's why i love it. But my mind went instantly to something you can fit on a ship like a hacking mod that can brake the computer of a cap ships and abort the SD.

This mod should be difficult to fit on a ship and make you sacrifice tank or DPS alternatively can only be fitted to a HIC, this would create a viable primary for the cap ship to try and kill if they really want to SD. Will increase the length of an engagement and may even escalate if they have something to fight for.
Mr Bigwinky
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-06-21 10:48:10 UTC
MadbaM wrote:
SD is one way of people being ganked to take some control and grief the people griefing them and I have no problem with it. Yes its annoying but i make do with local tears fraps and grabs. People crying about how small ships not get a chance to SD so nether should caps your wrong. Show me a sub cap that takes that long to align then warp and show me one that can fit a mod that traps it on field for 5min and ill maybe agree with you.

But yes i think something needs to change, there needs to be a counter and there is usually a counter for everything in EVE that's why i love it. But my mind went instantly to something you can fit on a ship like a hacking mod that can brake the computer of a cap ships and abort the SD.

This mod should be difficult to fit on a ship and make you sacrifice tank or DPS alternatively can only be fitted to a HIC, this would create a viable primary for the cap ship to try and kill if they really want to SD. Will increase the length of an engagement and may even escalate if they have something to fight for.
This is stupid.

A killmail is just a record of what happened after all. Add the words "self-destructed" to it if you like but I find it incomprehendable that pilots can't write down what blew up and when just because it self-destructed.

It is a lot less work to make it generate a killmail than design and balance a whole new module. Also, every HIC would have one so it would become a necessary module which would suck. Did I mention it was a stupid idea?
Welcome to EVE online, here's your rubix cube, go F*** yourself ♥
Utsen Dari
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-06-21 11:04:42 UTC
The existence of self destruct in combat to deny killmails means a lot of fun, more evenly-matched fights that involve at least one capship do not occur. Self-destruct in combat means the enemy who is attacking your capship figures they have to bring enough force to squash it flat in 120 seconds from when they appear on D-scan, or else no record will be generated. They figure they have to bring the blob.

Attacking a capship with a handful of ships and barely squeaking out a victory, or beating off a bunch of ships with your capship + support and just barely surviving, these are the fights you talk about for months afterward. Squashing a capship flat in 120 seconds, or getting squashed flat in 120 seconds where you had no chance at all, these are not. Self destruct in combat encourages people to set up the latter types of fights.
MadbaM
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-06-21 12:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MadbaM
Mr Bigwinky I really couldn't care less how hard is would be to do or not, neither did I say it was the right solution just the one that came to mind as a mechanic to counter the SD rather than just remove it from game. I'm 100% in favour of anything that adds elements to the game over just flat out removing them.

Mr Bigwinky wrote:
A killmail is just a record of who shot something and when it exploded. Why would pilots not be able to document such an event just because it blew up earlier than you expected? It is rediculous.


No a Kill Mail is a record of someone laying the final blow on a ship, i don't think this should be changed to accommodate SD's just create a counter whatever the counter may be.
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-06-21 12:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sin Pew
MadbaM wrote:
Mr Bigwinky I really couldn't care less how hard is would be to do or not, neither did I say it was the right solution just the one that came to mind as a mechanic to counter the SD rather than just remove it from game. I'm 100% in favour of anything that adds elements to the game over just flat out removing them.

Mr Bigwinky wrote:
A killmail is just a record of who shot something and when it exploded. Why would pilots not be able to document such an event just because it blew up earlier than you expected? It is rediculous.


No a Kill Mail is a record of someone laying the final blow on a ship, i don't think this should be changed to accommodate SD's just create a counter whatever the counter may be.
KM is a battle report, SD in a battle shouldn't mean the battle didn't happen, that's what most people have been agreeing on in this thread, not removing SD.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
MadbaM
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-06-21 14:55:45 UTC
Sin Pew wrote:
KM is a battle report, SD in a battle shouldn't mean the battle didn't happen, that's what most people have been agreeing on in this thread, not removing SD


I don't understand you wanting the kill mail that says SD its like the medals they give out to looser's in a race, hear you go you finished last but that's a medal to say at least you tuck part. Just make it so you can prevent the SD in the first place weather that be aggregation timer or a super point this isn't a bloody fun run.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#53 - 2012-06-21 15:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Apolyon I
MadbaM wrote:
Sin Pew wrote:
KM is a battle report, SD in a battle shouldn't mean the battle didn't happen, that's what most people have been agreeing on in this thread, not removing SD


I don't understand you wanting the kill mail that says SD its like the medals they give out to looser's in a race, hear you go you finished last but that's a medal to say at least you tuck part. Just make it so you can prevent the SD in the first place weather that be aggregation timer or a super point this isn't a bloody fun run.

I don't see how "a km says SD is like a medal they give out to losers' in a race".

it's still a km after all, with additional part about this guy SD his ship.

tbh, the reasons I can see why people sd their ship is too coward to admit their failure or too afraid to have a mark on their kb.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2012-06-21 16:13:21 UTC
Tons of useless blah blah blah in this post. Lets identify the reason why we even need a Self Destruct function in a game like EvE. Its not about denial of a kill nor is it about griefing the other side. The ONLY reason a game like EvE requires a Self Destruct is to have an exit option from all of the Warp Disruption effects AFTER you have been defeated.

I repeat: Self Destruct is for scenarios where you have already lost but all the Warp Disruption effects prevent you from continuing to play the game.

And by continuing I of course mean spawning at Jita and getting down to the task of assembling your next ship. That is the sole purpose of the Self Destruct. Without SD you could be held indefinitely by the aggressing party, that does not add to the game in any way. Now, having established that SD is a way to bypass greifing after already being defeated we arrive at the conclusion that the current implementation of this function goes beyond its intent. Anyone who SDs while being aggressed by hostiles should still generate a killmail as to prevent the abuse of the SD function.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2012-06-21 16:40:15 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
SDs while being aggressed by hostiles should still generate a killmail
And whats the reason this has not been implemeted yet? It doesn't seem very complicated or code-intensive to me...

Do Devs agree wih this? Or is at least someone (twostep) pushing it?

SSC Brokering Service
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-06-21 16:54:43 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
SDs while being aggressed by hostiles should still generate a killmail
And whats the reason this has not been implemeted yet? It doesn't seem very complicated or code-intensive to me...

Do Devs agree wih this? Or is at least someone (twostep) pushing it?



There was a blog post about it some time ago, still haven't seen it come through.
Myz Toyou
Nekkid Inc.
#57 - 2012-06-21 17:28:32 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
SDs while being aggressed by hostiles should still generate a killmail
And whats the reason this has not been implemeted yet? It doesn't seem very complicated or code-intensive to me...

Do Devs agree wih this? Or is at least someone (twostep) pushing it?



There was a blog post about it some time ago, still haven't seen it come through.


It seems TwoStep never discovered this forum since he was elected anyway... Were are my votes TwoSteplauski Sad
hgedsku
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-06-21 18:29:00 UTC
So let me get this straight.
The loot doesn't matter just the denying of your epeen?
If that is the case then I see no problem and I think you guys are making the argument backwards.
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-06-21 19:11:11 UTC
hgedsku wrote:
So let me get this straight.
The loot doesn't matter just the denying of your epeen?
If that is the case then I see no problem and I think you guys are making the argument backwards.
But you didn't get it straight.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#60 - 2012-06-21 19:17:32 UTC
hgedsku wrote:
So let me get this straight.
The loot doesn't matter just the denying of your epeen?
If that is the case then I see no problem and I think you guys are making the argument backwards.

E-Peen is serious business. I will not rest until mine is large enough to swat stations out of orbit with.

Isk is no motivation, isk is no engine of growth; e-peen is what keeps the world going.