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Pay To Win and "Gold Ammo" Is A Knee-Jerk Reaction

Author
Undeadenemy
The Riot Formation
DARKNESS.
#1 - 2011-09-20 00:14:19 UTC
I think the whole idea of pay to win is an exaggeration. The idea that enough volume of people will pay for purely cosmetic items to justify having the NEX doesn't seem feasible. Certainly, you have people who will buy anything you put in front of them, but the thought that there will NEVER be anything that is "useful" come out of the NEX is irritating to say the least.

Explain to me how purchasing a useful item, such as a unique looking ship hull would break the game assuming that the item was no different (other than appearance) than something you could get elsewhere seems knee-jerk to me. Maybe a unique looking ship that was effectively the same as an ishkur for example, but looked totally different and could be resold on the open market, could be called a vanity item.

Basically, I don't think that having items sold at the NEX that actually do something other than look stupid would break the game at all provided it was done correctly. I also think that all those people screaming that they would cancel their accounts are bluffing.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2011-09-20 08:30:22 UTC
If you're referring to the Ishkuone Watch Scorpion, then from a combat game balance perspective, it's in irrelevance. However fromt he perspective of a player who owns a Scorpion BPO and made his income selling Scorpions, it was in direct competion with his livelihood.

This illustrates the core problem with P2W cash shops: they undermine and drive out players from the supply chains that drive EVE's player economy, which directly reduces the amount of player interaction. They're parasitic on the game.

For instance, if you can buy gold ammo in the cash shop, what happens to the mission runner who makes his ISK by converting his LP into faction ammo?

If you can buy gold modules in the cash shop, what happens to the plexer who makes his ISK by running plexes for deadspace modules?

If you can buy gold boosters, then what happens to the gas miners?

And so on.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Undeadenemy
The Riot Formation
DARKNESS.
#3 - 2011-09-20 18:54:53 UTC
Maybe saying a ship that is cosmetically different was a bad example. Let's take it a step further. Lets say there was a ship that was cosmetically different from other ship hulls in the game, and also had a different set of bonuses. For our thought exercise, the ship itself is balanced alongside everything else in the game. Also, anyone who purchases the ship can then sell it on the regular market at a price dictated by normal market forces. The ship BPO does not drop anywhere in the regular game space. The only way to acquire it without AURM would be to buy it from someone who bought it with AURM.

Further, maybe it could be done like this: you purchase a blueprint copy of the ship at the NEX, but still have to construct the ship itself. Further, any purchase made in this way would have to be made at a NEX retailer station, which could be strategically located by CCP to induce trade.

Also, I think you assume that just because there would be an alternative way of acquiring an item, that using money to do it would be the preferred method. Some people refuse to pay a subscription price, other might bite on the subscription, but would not pay for any extra items. There would still be plenty of people who want to purchase a scorpion normally through the scorpion manufacturer. Also, you have to consider, that even in the case of the Ishukone Watch Scorpion, while it may be effectively the same ship with a different skin or model, the Ishukone Watch Scorpion would always be more expensive than a regular scorpion, as it is a special ship not readily available. Right now you can get a plex for roughly $20. That equates to around 400m ISK on a good trading day. So, if you paid $10 for an Ishukone Scorpion the price to purchase one on the open market would be about 200m ISK at break even prices. If it were $5 then it would be 100m ISK. The point is that that particular scorpion would be less cost effective than purchasing the vanilla scorpion. Some might say (incorrectly) that the market would dictate that no Ishukone Scorpions would sell, however, the market is for people who want unique looking ships and would pay extra for that.

Again, I'll reiterate my point that I am severely disappointed that knee-jerk reactionaries have shot down any future for the NEX store, as there is no way I'm going to pay $70 for an ugly monocle that does nothing whatsoever. I'm also not going to pay for clothing either, as no one will even be able to see my character for the foreseeable future. They may be able to sell me addons for the captains quarters, but that would depend on what the addons do.

I think the overall concern from some of the more logical people against "gold ammo" is just that, the idea of buying an item that is already available in game (or an item that is effectively the same) would hurt in-game trade. The answer here is not to swear off anything useful coming from the NEX, but to ensure that useful items coming from the NEX have functions different from current items, and can in turn be resold on the open market.
Undeadenemy
The Riot Formation
DARKNESS.
#4 - 2011-09-20 21:47:20 UTC
Another unmentioned solution to the problem here the already implemented ability to convert ISK to AURM. It goes like this:

ISK > Buy PLEX on Market > Convert PLEX to AURM.

Then the logical next step is to resell what you've purchased from the NEX shop hopefully at a profit, completing the cycle. The fact of the matter is, that we already have pay2win, and it's called faction ships/PLEX. The problem is that spending extra money on an item doesn't necessarily get you the win. The in game rich can afford to fly around in super decked out faction ships, and the people that have extra cash in real life can buy PLEX and do the same. If people really wanted to get rid of P2W, we wouldn't have PLEX.

I think the true heart of the matter is that people are jealous of people who have things that they don't. They automatically assume that just because people can put money into a game and get something for it, that it means they will become unstoppable and the peasantry is totally left in squalor. As a pirate, my mouth salivates at the idea of rich people running around thinking their money keeps them safe. Twisted

I know this is true from talking to plenty of people up in arms about alleged "gold ammo." When that internal memo was leaked, people didn't even bother to note the fact that it was simply a thought exercise. I had plenty of people screaming "HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT THEY'RE DOING!" at me. I just laughed and told them I hoped they did, because it would be a vehicle for plenty of positive change in EVE, and indeed it would open up expansions to the game that maybe CCP doesn't want to put a budget to.

Also, I believe the idea of P2W cash shops is unfounded. A good reason why this is so is if you look at the number of faction ships lost in combat. No matter how costly a ship is, or how awesome the bonuses are, you simply cannot simply pay to win. Plenty of high end ships decked out in the best gear have been ganked like crying school girls.

Maybe I'm a little all over the place about this topic. I think I should develop a list of a whole load of cool things that none of us are going to get now that the player base has through a hissy fit over nothing.
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#5 - 2011-09-21 04:24:05 UTC
in case you are confused, "pay to win" is used to mean "pay for an in game advantage". Any advantage you pay for is a bad move.. that the crux if the whole sediment.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#6 - 2011-09-21 06:41:07 UTC
Undeadenemy wrote:
Another unmentioned solution to the problem here the already implemented ability to convert ISK to AURM. It goes like this:

ISK > Buy PLEX on Market > Convert PLEX to AURM.

Then the logical next step is to resell what you've purchased from the NEX shop hopefully at a profit, completing the cycle...


This nicely illustrates what I was talking about when I said that the supply chains in the EVE economy could be driven out.

Pretty much the whole point of EVE is people doing things to supply each other with ships, modules and services in order to compete over the best ingame resources. Having a cash shop that "completes the cycle" on it's own directly conflicts with the game itself. Taken to it's logical conclusion, all we're left with is sterile PvP in space that nobody cares whether they own or not.

From your own argument, the only way to reduce (not eliminate) the damage caused is to hobble the cash shop by making it too expensive to use. But that's not what would happen, not in the end. I don't see a game publisher going to all the effort of creating a whole range of new game items in order to not sell them. Perhaps at first they'd have premium pricing in order to supply the collector market, but eventually they'd drop prices in order to boost volume - after all, the marginal cost of production for cash shop goods is zero.

As you yourself noted, people already fly expansive T3s and faction ships (which are currently provided by players and are the major export income of NPC 0.0 and W-space respectively), and PvPers will pay well for even a small advantage. If the cash shop ships had even a minor advantage, then, per game theory, they would get used, and they would drive out some or all of the ship classes. A player who is flying a cash-shopmobile isn't flying a player produced ship, therefore demand for player produced ships will fall with all the consequent damage to the supply chains and in game interaction I have laid out.

EVE already has suficient PCU, balance and economy problems without exacerbating the issues with a cash shop.

Finally, the argument that EVE players are already paying a premium subscription, and in very many cases multiple subs, and that we're entitled to have all the content in the game available to us for the price of that subscription isn't wholly unreasonable. The only reason that I myself am somewhat indifferent to the current NEx store is that the items sold are not only vanity but useless even for that (no one else can see them).

Incidentally, you do yourself no favours by dismissing the objections of others as a "hissy fit". You come across as rather emotionally involved yourself, to put it mildly, and an ad hominem is not a good argument. Whilst you have tried to argue that a cash shop wouldn't do as much damage as some people are saying, you haven't explained why you think it would be beneficial, when it's very obvious that you do.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#7 - 2011-09-21 13:27:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
A player who is flying a cash-shopmobile isn't flying a player produced ship, therefore demand for player produced ships will fall with all the consequent damage to the supply chains and in game interaction I have laid out.


What if the cash shop sold not "gold ships", but "gold ship" BPOs/BPCs ?

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2011-09-21 17:13:57 UTC
Karim alRashid wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
A player who is flying a cash-shopmobile isn't flying a player produced ship, therefore demand for player produced ships will fall with all the consequent damage to the supply chains and in game interaction I have laid out.


What if the cash shop sold not "gold ships", but "gold ship" BPOs/BPCs ?




If the cash-shopmobile is purely a vanity reskin, then the damage is limited to the final buyer spending his ISK on that instead of supporting player supply chains. That's some damage, but I suppose it's tolerable.

If it's anything more than a vanity reskin, then the damage immediately becomes much more significant: pirate faction ship BPCs are the primary export of NPC 0.0 (as well as being a major reward component of plexing). Oh and navy faction BPCs are a significant output of the LP stores, including the faction warfare LP stores.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-09-24 00:30:50 UTC
They could do some of it - not ammo, that's VERY bad, but vanity ships? Sure.

You provide a ship -AND- Aur. That ship is then "reskinned" to the look.

Nothing out of thin-air. If you want a pink scorpion with gold trim - you have to provide a scorpion WITH the Aur.

This is a vanity effect and would have zero impact on manufacturing, etc. - NOT BPC's/BPO's - bring the item you want and have it retouched.
Undeadenemy
The Riot Formation
DARKNESS.
#10 - 2011-09-26 00:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Undeadenemy
I understand that calling an argument "ad hominem" has become fashionable these days, but criticizing the player base for being knee-jerk (which they were) and throwing a hissy fit (which they did), does not make the argument ad hominem. CCP obviously needs the money from the NEX shop, or else why would they bother creating it. If CCP wants to make a profit off this shop, then they need to start producing useful goods and reasonable prices. Here is a list of things I've come up with that could vastly improve the NEX Store:

Vanity Ship BPC's:

-Gives the BPC for a vanity ship that does nothing other than look cool.

-You can fly around in it.

New/Different Combat Ship BPC's:


-BPC for a new/different combat ship that falls in line with other ships in the game currently.

Faction/Security Status Improvement:

-Pay to buff up your security status or faction standing so that you'll be able to go into more secure areas.

-Ratting your standing off sucks and there is no player service that does this already.

-Could possibly get more expensive after repeated uses, not to mention how much improvement you want to give yourself.

Unallocated SP:

-I've been playing this game 6 years and I don't care if someone can buy their way into skill.

-I myself would probably use this service to fill gaps in my character sheet that I don't want to take the time out to train.

-Should probably cost about 1.5 X the price of a PLEX for 30 days of skill points.

-Possibly, you could disable regular training until the time you would have spent training has elapsed. That way, you can pay to have it now, but if you do, you won't be able to train for that amount of time (or you could purchase more SP).

-Imagine training a new titan pilot, would probably be pretty expensive, but that's the price you pay to get it now.

Furniture for Captain's Quarters:

-Self explanatory.

Ship Reskin Instruction Disk:

-You can make "drafts" of the reskin for free, to allow you to get it perfect. Only costs to actually create the "reskin disk," which is an item that can be applied to the ship itself.

-Cost dependant on the type of ship, a frigate would be dirt cheap, a titan or super carrier would be very costly.

-Great for alliance flag ships.

-"Reskin Disk" selling would make a great mini-profession for artists out there, as a great player-artist could draw big money for a really bad ass titan or supercap skin.





All of these things except the ship BPC's are thing that are not currently in the game in any form, and further aren't developed by the players in any fashion. They could also be resold on the market just like a PLEX.
3V0LUT10N
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-09-27 09:29:23 UTC
There seem to be too many issues involved with such a complex system as Eve is to add a cash shop that sells anything that would be functionally different to items that are already found in game. Even items that are functionally identical could throw the game out of whack due to mining and manufacturing being such a huge part of the game when it comes to holding sovereignty in null sec.

As far as ship skins, the only viable option I see is for it to be an actual skin and not a ship that is sold on the cash shop. Same goes for any other item.

That being said, don't forget that just about everyone has different ways of playing the game. For example, I am of the sort that would, if not for the harsh death penalty, play the game exclusively for pvp. That being said, I could care less about mining, manufacturing, running a corp, and all the rest of it. So in my case, I would be more than willing to pay for items that are persistent in-game for a fixed period of time. As such, I could enjoy my pvp without having to worry about all the rest of it that makes the game a chore rather than an enjoyment (personal relationships in-game notwithstanding).

This, however, would be just as game breaking as any other item sold in a cash shop other than skins. The complex nature of Eve Online precludes it from being benign where game mechanics is concerned. If they want to change the game mechanics and make it less complex, less of a chore, and more enjoyable...I won't complain. Otherwise...meh.


Undeadenemy
The Riot Formation
DARKNESS.
#12 - 2011-09-28 21:10:15 UTC
3V0LUT10N wrote:
There seem to be too many issues involved with such a complex system as Eve is to add a cash shop that sells anything that would be functionally different to items that are already found in game. Even items that are functionally identical could throw the game out of whack due to mining and manufacturing being such a huge part of the game when it comes to holding sovereignty in null sec.

As far as ship skins, the only viable option I see is for it to be an actual skin and not a ship that is sold on the cash shop. Same goes for any other item.

That being said, don't forget that just about everyone has different ways of playing the game. For example, I am of the sort that would, if not for the harsh death penalty, play the game exclusively for pvp. That being said, I could care less about mining, manufacturing, running a corp, and all the rest of it. So in my case, I would be more than willing to pay for items that are persistent in-game for a fixed period of time. As such, I could enjoy my pvp without having to worry about all the rest of it that makes the game a chore rather than an enjoyment (personal relationships in-game notwithstanding).

This, however, would be just as game breaking as any other item sold in a cash shop other than skins. The complex nature of Eve Online precludes it from being benign where game mechanics is concerned. If they want to change the game mechanics and make it less complex, less of a chore, and more enjoyable...I won't complain. Otherwise...meh.




What about my suggestions as far as the non-indentical, non-similar items? Things like paying to have your security status/faction standing improved, as well as the selling of unallocated SP?

Some people make take offense to the unallocated SP, but as I've said, I've played the game for 6 years and I don't care if someone could rapidly skill up through the spending of real cash. The benefit to a 6 year player would be the ability to fill in missing skills that I never got around to training, without having to take time off the larger skills that I need to train. A newer player could put some money toward skilling up to becoming a good BC/BS pilot without having to wait 2-3 months. It would be great for them being able to get over the tough initial curve EVE is famous for. In an extreme (and expensive) case, a large alliance could quickly skill up a new titan/super carrier pilot.



Lets do the math on what it could theoretically cost to take a blank character into a titan:

The formula:

( [ Training Time / 30 days ] * [ PLEX x 1.5 ] ) + ( [ ISK Required / 400m ISK ] * PLEX ) = Cost in Dollars


-PLEX represents the cost in dollars ($19.95) of 30 days of game time at the current PLEX price. The multiplier of 1.5 would be the cost of unallocated SP for this experiment.

-We will assume default attribute points (all 20 except Charisma which is 19) when calculating the number of SP generated in 30 days (the amount you could purchase for [PLEX x 1.5]).



-Using the blank character tool in EVEMON with Gallente > Gallente > Activists:
-Character planned to train all Required + Support skills of Titan to 5
-For easier math I rounded up to the next whole day.

Training Time 1096d 18h 14m 27s
ISK required: 6,352,682,000 ISK

( [36.57] * [29.925] ) + ( [15.88] * 19.95 ) = COST

(1,094.36) + (316.81) = $1,411.17



As you can see, even though it would be "easy", the cost of taking a blank character into a maxed Titan (with no pit stops along the way -- not even extra leadership skills) is quite significant. I should also point out that this is only the pilot, and does not take into account the cost of the ship itself.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#13 - 2011-09-28 22:39:25 UTC
"Gold Ammo" in the NEX store really only brings up one valid problem in the Eve 'verse we love. That is introduction of resources without inclusion of the player driven supply chain. For whatever reason no one seems upset at the moment about expensive "space jeans" because mostly we are all ignoring them, but everyone quickly saw how ships or ammo would be stealing the long limb roes off of some poor miner's dinner table. That could be reduced by making the stuff in the NEX store player constructed or make them require some player provided resource to actually be completed.

The argument that the NEX store makes "pay to win" possible in Eve is nonsense. We have had that for some time from the moment CCP allowed GTCs to be sold for isks (or continues to ignore the botting that feeds black market isk sales). Its my understanding that at least one major cap fleet in 0.0 is a directly result of turning large amounts of RL currency to isks. If I am willing to burn RL currency to gain an advantage in Eve I absolutely can all legally in Eve today. RL $ giving an advantage has happened and continues to happen now. Even something as simple as multiple accounts is RL$ giving someone a leg up.

NEX is not "pay to win" sneaking it's space camel nose into the Eve tent. NEX is stealing the food from the mouths of industrialists and miners and the "gold ammo" in Eve would make that even worse. Right now NEX really isn't a drain on the community because no once cares about new space barbie outfits for their captain's closet but once more "walking in whatever" happens should more RL currency start to be spent on NEX, that is resources that won't participate in making players profit from exercising their space vocations. That is what we should worry about when we ponder NEX. Until there is "crafting" to allow players to benefit from NEX purchases (I had to choke back my inner wood elf bard there for a moment) NEX has the potential of hurting the miny/buildy folk.

I'd looking forward to someone trying to convince me I got that wrong.

Issler
Undeadenemy
The Riot Formation
DARKNESS.
#14 - 2011-09-28 23:18:23 UTC
I pretty much agree with what you have to say there Issler, but I wish you would address what I said in the post above about the Unallocated SP and Security Status/Faction standings increases. Both of those are not sold in any way currently, so I think both of those fit into the category of useful but not player driven items.

Further, I do like what you've said about being amiable to useful items coming from the NEX so long as there is a player economy contribution. I would like to see the possibilities of this.

You also hinted at the possible problem of even the clothing being sold at the NEX being an issue in the future after walking in stations finally comes to fruition. Surely, if you will be able to craft clothing in game, having clothing sold would hamper production somewhat. (Unless you could design unique clothing and sell that, in which case it would depend on who makes the better suit.) For that matter, what about crafting furniture?

Please refer to my above post regarding the Unallocated SP and theoretical costs associated with them. I think you'll find it interesting, plus, if nothing else were added to the NEX store, I would love to be able to buy Unallocated SP.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2011-09-29 07:04:02 UTC
Undeadenemy wrote:
I pretty much agree with what you have to say there Issler, but I wish you would address what I said in the post above about the Unallocated SP and Security Status/Faction standings increases. Both of those are not sold in any way currently, so I think both of those fit into the category of useful but not player driven items.



This is not quite correct. There is currently a small but thriving profession of people who will work up your standings by fleeting with you and grinding level 4s and sharing the reward, giving a corp standing boost (and being able to run level 4s yourself quickly leads to big improvements in faction standing). Additionally, there are already in-game methods for specifically raising faction standing, so directly selling standing in the cash shop is once again deleting game-play for a quick buck.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#16 - 2011-09-29 07:09:25 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:

The argument that the NEX store makes "pay to win" possible in Eve is nonsense. We have had that for some time from the moment CCP allowed GTCs to be sold for isks


No, because said ISKs are earned in-game. The process of converting GTC to PLEX, does not create any object with any in-game effect.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos

Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#17 - 2011-09-29 19:32:25 UTC
Karim alRashid wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:

The argument that the NEX store makes "pay to win" possible in Eve is nonsense. We have had that for some time from the moment CCP allowed GTCs to be sold for isks


No, because said ISKs are earned in-game. The process of converting GTC to PLEX, does not create any object with any in-game effect.


I addressed that point specifically. You confuse "in game advantage" with "detrimental effect on player ecconomy".

If I can take my RL paycheck and buy a cap fleet or 100 accounts I have an advatage over everyone that can't. Russians have been said to have done that in a BIG way and owned a ton of 0.0 as a result. That is "pay to win".

That is in game now. I may make some miners and ship builders wealthy in the process but I am trading my RL currency for their time in game. If my RL time to $ ratio is better than their hour to isk ratio I win because I can amass more Eve stuff faster and in greater quantity than they can. So I "paid to win". Being a reasonably paid software professional at current exchang rates I make about 40 billion isks a day in RL assuming I want to make my $ into isks. (I still think when I created my RL character I should have optioned up a super model, maybe I should start an atl) Most would agree 40 billion isk a day would give me an edge.

Let me ilustrate in another way. All we really have anywhere is time. If an hour of my RL can get me what the best player can only get in a number of hours I can gain an advantage over that player because I get more faster and I win. The player in Eve earning just in Eve has to face the results of the output of the 5 players I can aquire (assuming in this example a 5 to 1 ratio ot Eve to RL earnings per hour) in the same amount of time. Or another another way, I can have five accounts with five "players" in Eve doing things when the solitary player has just one. My RL money gives me a very real "pay to win" advantage.

Issler
Undeadenemy
The Riot Formation
DARKNESS.
#18 - 2011-09-29 20:03:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Undeadenemy wrote:
I pretty much agree with what you have to say there Issler, but I wish you would address what I said in the post above about the Unallocated SP and Security Status/Faction standings increases. Both of those are not sold in any way currently, so I think both of those fit into the category of useful but not player driven items.



This is not quite correct. There is currently a small but thriving profession of people who will work up your standings by fleeting with you and grinding level 4s and sharing the reward, giving a corp standing boost (and being able to run level 4s yourself quickly leads to big improvements in faction standing). Additionally, there are already in-game methods for specifically raising faction standing, so directly selling standing in the cash shop is once again deleting game-play for a quick buck.



While the Level 4 grinders don't really concern me, I'll concede you have a point on that one. The parts I mentioned about security status, "bribing CONCORD" if you will, still stands though. Also, the unallocated SP stands as well.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#19 - 2011-09-29 20:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Karim alRashid
Issler,

Sorry, no.

Whatever gives you advantage is paid for with in-game money. No matter how rich are you in some parallel universe, your in-game advantage will always be bound by what can be earned in-game and only in-game.

PLEXing a cap fleet is no different (from an in-game point of view) from using your charisma to convince some miners and builders to build you a cap fleet.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos

Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#20 - 2011-09-30 01:02:51 UTC
Karim alRashid wrote:
Issler,

Sorry, no.

Whatever gives you advantage is paid for with in-game money. No matter how rich are you in some parallel universe, your in-game advantage will always be bound by what can be earned in-game and only in-game.

PLEXing a cap fleet is no different (from an in-game point of view) from using your charisma to convince some miners and builders to build you a cap fleet.


I was trying to be polite and just not point out you are being a little dense, but I guess there is no getting aournd it, you are clearly not able to see the way the world works. Any idiot can change RL $ to Eve wealth with no effort at all. They can take that "not earned by them in Eve" wealth and gain serious advantage in many ways. Very Very Very few folks in Eve can "charisma" a cap fleet out of miners. In fact I'm pretty sure I could aquire more stuff with my RL $ than you can with your "charm".

Yes, you are bound by in game resources but there are thousands of ways I can beat you with RL dollars being converted to ISKs. Sure, someone in Eve will get those isks for their efforts. What you are missing is I don't have to work in game for those isks to take advantage of them.

Let's take these simple examples, the first two I win with RL $ and don't even have to buy a GTC.

1. I pay for 10 accounts and you only have one. I can multibox a decent mining fleet that will out mine your single account every time. My RL beats your in game isk making.

2. Player "A" has an Acme PC with the lowest graphics adapter supported by Eve. It actually renders the display mechanically on a sheet of paper. Player "A" has "Connectmenot" for an ISP and had ping times in the minutes. Player "B" the fastest PC on the planet, graphics cards submersed in cryogenically frozen baby seal oil and is connected directly to the backbone of the internet. RL $s give "B" a huge advantge as he makes popping "A" his new hobby as "A" lags himself to distraction.

3. I want to crush a little corp so I use RL $ to buy enough isk to merc them out of existence.

4. I want a capital fleet in a hurry to defend my nul secpocket so I use RL $ to buy the skills and a super carrier for every member in my alliance with a pulse. Soon I own your not assisted with RL $ nul sec to add to my own. This has happened!

5. I want to own a market so I use RL $ to buy T2 BPOs, buy up all of some key raw material regardless of the price or to flood the market with stuff sold at a loss to drive out my competition. I don't need to make a profit because I can have all the isks I want with my sky high stacks in RL.

6. Two 30 member corporations go to war, corp A has someone willing to buy tens of billions of isks with RL $. Corp "B" is limited to whatever resources they had on hand and can earn during the war in Eve. Corp A gets to fly the best gear and use the best ammo and mods no matter what because they have a bottomless isk fountain and losses are replaced immediately. If the corps have anywhere similar skills "A" buys an "I WIN" button with RL $ and makes "B" its female slaver hound.

7. Two players start in Eve at exactly the same time. "FredinSpace" buys billions isk to start, immediatley maxes out implants, can have every skill he need exacly when he need them, has all the right ships and gear available instantly and maxes out his Eve learning experience. "DouginSpace" just earns as he goes, can't immediately get the learning bonus from the implants, buys skills and gear as he can. In 6 months which player is in the better postion assuming identical effort in building their character? Even more extreme example. Guy with RL $ converts them to isks and just buys a pretrained uber character. Sure, he'll bumble around for a while as he figures out Eve but he could put himself years ahead with his RL $.

Tell me how any of those isn't buying an advantage over someone else that either can't or isn't willing to spend RL $ to match me in my madness?

You can't simply earn enough in game fast enough to overcome the effect of RL $ being changed to ISK in game.

Eve has been --- RL $ FTW! for some time and always will be,

Issler

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