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Question to the pve community
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#121 - 2012-06-20 05:54:10 UTC
THE L0CK wrote:
You are mining in a belt and a suicide ganker enters said belt and starts heading for you.

What does the active player do?

What does the afk player do?

Answer those questions and you will have your answer to my original question.

He must have gotten a pretty crappy warp in.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#122 - 2012-06-20 06:34:00 UTC
Quote:

Mining and salvaging in Eve, mining, herbing, skinning come to mind in WoW.
You have Contracts in Eve, it's WoW parellel is the Auction house.
You have competition in the industrial sector in EvE, mirrored by the blacksmithing, gemcrafting, engineering, scribing, leatherworking and enchanting sector in WoW, competing to make your stuffs for some money.
Mission runners in EvE are actually in less competition with their brethren. In WoW, all quest runners end up in the same areas as one another, competing against each other.

Essentially, once you come into contact with another player doing the things you are doing, you are butting heads with them. You are competing. This is PvP by the very definition given for Eve Online, and somehow that definition does not apply to all the other MMOs? Come on. If it's not PvP in other MMOs, it's not PvP in Eve. A dog here is not a cat there. It's still a dog, and crowing about one major feature does not erase or somehow overcome the rest of them in a honest discussion concerning said features. As for the comment that PvP servers are not game wide, they do not remove one feature from ANY of their PvE servers, SAVE that there is no restriction on where and when PvP may occur. PvE is not the only feature of WoW, and nobody is restricted to a game of no PvP anywhere, anytime like most people claim with little knowledge of how many options they do have.


Having trouble following your last paragraph but I am assuming you meant the only difference between PVE and PVP servers is that you can remain bluewalled until you specifically enter into enemy territory, as opposed to being flagged everywhere except home territory on pvp servers. Even on pvp servers when you are in a home city you can turn off your pvp flag and be immune to attack after 5 minutes.

I agree gathering skills are definitely a form of pvp, as a tauren druid i've ticked off more than my fair share of herb farmers and played the auction house games, they're pretty much the same here. However it's very simplistic as all the AH's in all the major cities are tied together, except for the neutral AH. There is no regional market to play. I would als opoint out questers do not have to partake because if they don't like the market prices they can sell their stuff to an NPC vendor.

I also want to point out questing, is the lowest form of PVE. Dungeons and Raids make up the large majority of environment content with the best / most valuable rewards and that is decidedly a cooperative venture with no chance for outside influence due to instancing. The only competition comes from rolling or DKP for drops and depending on what guild you are in, it's not an issue.

So close...
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#123 - 2012-06-20 06:46:10 UTC
If I could be like The Broker (read Empyrean Age to see who that is) and go back in time too, I would impersonate Hilmar and and one of the major changes I would make would be this:



ALL mining is done by NPC - controlled ships that are owned by players.

And ALL such ships would be open to attack by both NPC pirates and other players. But in doing so, you are now flagged for counterattack by the owner of the mining vessels you attacked.

And so such players looking to field mining ops would not have to mine themselves, but would actually have to train for and equip for PVP. There would be no "mining skill" versus "PVP skill". Miners would be PVPers, and those wanting to pop mining ships would also have to be PVPers too.

I would reckon that a player fielding NPC-driven mining ops could also field defenses for them too. Perhaps that would be the end of missions? In that case, EVERYBODY is trained for and equipped for PVP.


The game would be way different.

Sadly I'm not the broker (and good thing too - would not enjoy his fate), and impersonating some big wheel at CCP would not have gone down well anyway. I don't know how to row a long boat - or whatever it is they do over there in Iceland.

Still .... sometimes... late at night when I can hear the ragequiting...


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kali Memine
Doomheim
#124 - 2012-06-20 06:56:06 UTC
It;s funny to see how come the pvp in this game is always related to pew pew, nothing else. It might be a shock for all these pvp fans to hear that there is something called market pvp that involve much more than fit a ship and blow stuff up. So while the raging community kill each other and set the universe on fire and destruction, there is also a silent community that work hard to build stuff and fuel the war. And most of these people live in high sec close to trade hubs where they can buy and sell the stuff they produce.


And sometimes you need to gather yourself the raw materials. One of the method is through mining. And hell yeah, mining is boring. And I'm 100% sure that none will say that watching for countless hours the lasers melting rocks it's fun. Actually you can compare the mining in EVE with the RL fishing:

Vincent Athena wrote:
....

Edit: If you set a fishing pole and then sit beside it and read, are you really fishing?

Spot on. Fishing is a way to chill out for many people. But no fisher will just stay for hours/day and watch the water or the fishing pole. You just lay down and read a book, have a beer and chat with the friends etc. So telling people that afk mining is bad is wrong. Is not the miners fault that mining is so boring.

CCP should change the mechanism and make the mining somehow more interesting. Somebody said once that instead of melting the rocks with lasers, miners could just blow up the asteroids and the gather the ore. And I think this is a good idea since you can't afk anymore while mining, you have to be there and 100% focused on what are you doing. End of brainless mining/ganking, more fun.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#125 - 2012-06-20 07:13:59 UTC
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:

So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions?



CCP Soundwave wrote:
[
minerals through collaborative PVE.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1480917#post1480917

So much for the strictly PvP.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#126 - 2012-06-20 07:23:09 UTC
Ocih wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
minerals through collaborative PVE.
So much for the strictly PvP.
…apart from it being subject to (PvP) competition and from the whole thing being presented as a conditional phrase. So yes, still as strictly PvP as always.
Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
#127 - 2012-06-20 07:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Flex Carter
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
No it started out asking the pve community if they should allow afk and bots to be allowed to have safe zones to afk and bot. But the last two pages I have no clue what the point came too. Haha. Basically play Eve how you want, pve or pvp it doesnt matter, but u have to play be aware and pay attention. Learn and adapt. I do not belive afk miners and bots have any rights when all the grief they encounter can be avoided by just paying attention.


This game allows you to be afk, don,t know about botters ,but what happens when CCP implement something that monitors your client activity
like being inactive (changing speed or direction ,overview changes by client) for about 15 or 30 minutes would that help?
and ofcourse automaticly logs you out after being inactive


This would be a great idea... How does someone measure the amount of pvping an AFK cloaker does in an enemy system. We rant and rave about AFK mining (to an extent) but AFK cloaking 23hrs a day is fine by the masses......geez Roll
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#128 - 2012-06-20 07:40:07 UTC
Flex Carter wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
No it started out asking the pve community if they should allow afk and bots to be allowed to have safe zones to afk and bot. But the last two pages I have no clue what the point came too. Haha. Basically play Eve how you want, pve or pvp it doesnt matter, but u have to play be aware and pay attention. Learn and adapt. I do not belive afk miners and bots have any rights when all the grief they encounter can be avoided by just paying attention.


This game allows you to be afk, don,t know about botters ,but what happens when CCP implement something that monitors your client activity
like being inactive (changing speed or direction ,overview changes by client) for about 15 or 30 minutes would that help?
and ofcourse automaticly logs you out after being inactive


This would be a great idea... How does someone measure the amount of pvping an AFK cloaker does in an enemy system. We rant and rave about AFK mining (to an extent) but AFK cloaking 23hrs a day is fine by the masses......geez Roll


AFK cloaking doesn't give you anything. AFK mining makes you money (and nobody has a problem with it, we just gank inattentive people).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
#129 - 2012-06-20 08:07:37 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Flex Carter wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
No it started out asking the pve community if they should allow afk and bots to be allowed to have safe zones to afk and bot. But the last two pages I have no clue what the point came too. Haha. Basically play Eve how you want, pve or pvp it doesnt matter, but u have to play be aware and pay attention. Learn and adapt. I do not belive afk miners and bots have any rights when all the grief they encounter can be avoided by just paying attention.


This game allows you to be afk, don,t know about botters ,but what happens when CCP implement something that monitors your client activity
like being inactive (changing speed or direction ,overview changes by client) for about 15 or 30 minutes would that help?
and ofcourse automaticly logs you out after being inactive


This would be a great idea... How does someone measure the amount of pvping an AFK cloaker does in an enemy system. We rant and rave about AFK mining (to an extent) but AFK cloaking 23hrs a day is fine by the masses......geez Roll


AFK cloaking doesn't give you anything. AFK mining makes you money (and nobody has a problem with it, we just gank inattentive people).


If AFK cloaking doesn't give you anything, then why do it 23hrs a day with alts (not u personally)? If you can gank a inattentive miner then you should be able to gank a inattentive cloaker as well (after a period of time though... )
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#130 - 2012-06-20 08:11:08 UTC
Flex Carter wrote:
If AFK cloaking doesn't give you anything, then why do it 23hrs a day with alts (not u personally)?
Because it robs the enemy of their intel tool (and, quite often, of various resources).

Of course, if you want to argue that their loss is your gain…
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#131 - 2012-06-20 08:22:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ocih wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
minerals through collaborative PVE.
So much for the strictly PvP.
…apart from it being subject to (PvP) competition and from the whole thing being presented as a conditional phrase. So yes, still as strictly PvP as always.


You would argue about the color of the fuckin wind.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#132 - 2012-06-20 08:27:28 UTC
Ocih wrote:
You would argue about the color of the fuckin wind.
No. I would just argue that a competitive activity modelled after a competitive activity to provide an alternative for a competitive activity should be considered competitive — you know, PvP. As such, it wouldn't really break the trend of everything in the game being PvP.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#133 - 2012-06-20 09:00:14 UTC
Flex Carter wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Flex Carter wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
No it started out asking the pve community if they should allow afk and bots to be allowed to have safe zones to afk and bot. But the last two pages I have no clue what the point came too. Haha. Basically play Eve how you want, pve or pvp it doesnt matter, but u have to play be aware and pay attention. Learn and adapt. I do not belive afk miners and bots have any rights when all the grief they encounter can be avoided by just paying attention.


This game allows you to be afk, don,t know about botters ,but what happens when CCP implement something that monitors your client activity
like being inactive (changing speed or direction ,overview changes by client) for about 15 or 30 minutes would that help?
and ofcourse automaticly logs you out after being inactive


This would be a great idea... How does someone measure the amount of pvping an AFK cloaker does in an enemy system. We rant and rave about AFK mining (to an extent) but AFK cloaking 23hrs a day is fine by the masses......geez Roll


AFK cloaking doesn't give you anything. AFK mining makes you money (and nobody has a problem with it, we just gank inattentive people).


If AFK cloaking doesn't give you anything, then why do it 23hrs a day with alts (not u personally)? If you can gank a inattentive miner then you should be able to gank a inattentive cloaker as well (after a period of time though... )


To deny you the effective use of an intel tool. Just like people keeping Titan pilots logged in to keep a threat of hotdropping alive.

AFK mining is an economic activity, Cloaking is not. An AFK Cloaker cannot do anything to you, by definition. Therefore it is not producing any Economic impact unless other players make it produce one.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Taranius De Consolville
Doomheim
#134 - 2012-06-20 10:43:18 UTC
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
I have been reading many arguments about the pvp community telling players how to play EvE. So I have a question to the pve community itself, note not all of the pve community is included in this question.

I have heard a lot of pve miners who say to leave them alone in mining in high sec. Stating that mining in high sec is a easy to to play without playing. Having heard someone once state " mining in high sec is the easiest way for me to play while doing homework".I have read many statements just like that. Where people want to have an area where they can afk or not have to pay little attention to there game while they progress at the task at hand.

Question: what other mmo actually allows you to do that?

From my years of playing a wide varity of mmo's I have yet to find one that allows what you suggest to actually take place. In fact the only way I have seen that happen is through botting. Which if I remember correctly there is not a mmo in the world that allows a player to do that.

So basically you came to one of the most violent and grief filled pvp games in the world and ask to be left alone. Seeing how this is not WoW or any other mmo that dosen't have random mobs popping up on u at every second, or a separate pve sever for you to play on, which even in games like that u still have to pay attention to your screen and actively play the game. I mean this is no different execept that instead of an npc mob attacking u while u gather its a player.

So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions?


Hi, Mittani alt? cause this is all Mittani shite. You know whats in null sec PVP HARDCORE OMG AREA - no one, u know why? Cause they make more money in empire ganking haulers. Are you playing the same game we are? Why should i PVP? Cause you want me to? Uh no, missions, hell yeh, lp rewards, hells yes. PvP solo then get ganked by a dudes mates in 15 ambushes in one night cause most pvpers are cowards? Nah, ill pass

No buddy, the people who effed this game up are the pvpers, no the pve's buddy, the pvp pilots

And as per usual pvp pilot crap, there trying to shfit the blame to the pve lot.

go play wow? why? i never once ubsubbed my wow account, i love it, i play lotro, aion, minecraft, my xbox and ps3, all this whislt being married with 4 kids mate. back to the start of around 05 when pvpers started messing with pve pilots then UR OMG UBER WTF PWNAGE eve online began to bugger up, guess whose to blame buddy? guess whose really to blame?

You
Amarr Haircare Products
Doomheim
#135 - 2012-06-20 11:50:15 UTC
"THE L0CK" wrote:
You are mining in a belt and a suicide ganker warps in on optimal because he first scouted you and dropped a bookmark.

What does the active player do?

What does the afk player do?

Answer those questions and you will have your answer to my original question.


...is this a trick question?
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#136 - 2012-06-20 12:56:19 UTC
Amarr Haircare Products wrote:
"THE L0CK" wrote:
You are mining in a belt and a suicide ganker warps in on optimal because he first scouted you and dropped a bookmark.

What does the active player do?

What does the afk player do?

Answer those questions and you will have your answer to my original question.


...is this a trick question?


Yes because it doesn't take into account if the afk player has a tank.

My best guess is the afk player dies, the active player was on hid A-game and was already actively aligned and warped as soon as something appeared on overview, or was not or was a little slow to react and let out a series of random yet alarming sounds before dying. Unless he was tanked.

So close...
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#137 - 2012-06-20 13:14:36 UTC
The OP's original question still stands. why do "pve only, I hate pvp", solo, casual, "anti-serious death penalty" themepark style mmo player insist on playing EVE (and demanding that a game change to suit their needs) rather than play any of a number of other games more suited to them.

It's not just them ,it's EVERYONE who doesn't like how EVE is. I know people who STILL grumble about not being able to fly ships 1st person with a joystick depsite the fact that a capsuleer is supposed to be the CAPTAIN of a ship, not the pilot. ect. And eve isn't the 1st game I've played that had people like this in it, I remember the "newtonian physics" crowd in X-wing lol (my answe was always "screw you, this is a Star Wars game").

The truth is, some people are just dead set ANY status quo established order, no matter it it works or not they can't accept anything "as is"..
Some people are just misfits trying hard to make the world fit around them rather than changing to fit the world.
And some people are simple masochists, subjeting themselves to things they don't like and recieving some twisted pleasure for doing so.

More than anything, I feel sorry for them (while simultainiously wishing they would F*** off)..
Malacath Azaria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2012-06-20 15:25:22 UTC
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
I have been reading many arguments about the pvp community telling players how to play EvE. So I have a question to the pve community itself, note not all of the pve community is included in this question.

I have heard a lot of pve miners who say to leave them alone in mining in high sec. Stating that mining in high sec is a easy to to play without playing. Having heard someone once state " mining in high sec is the easiest way for me to play while doing homework".I have read many statements just like that. Where people want to have an area where they can afk or not have to pay little attention to there game while they progress at the task at hand.

Question: what other mmo actually allows you to do that?

From my years of playing a wide varity of mmo's I have yet to find one that allows what you suggest to actually take place. In fact the only way I have seen that happen is through botting. Which if I remember correctly there is not a mmo in the world that allows a player to do that.

So basically you came to one of the most violent and grief filled pvp games in the world and ask to be left alone. Seeing how this is not WoW or any other mmo that dosen't have random mobs popping up on u at every second, or a separate pve sever for you to play on, which even in games like that u still have to pay attention to your screen and actively play the game. I mean this is no different execept that instead of an npc mob attacking u while u gather its a player.

So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions?


Hi, Mittani alt? cause this is all Mittani shite. You know whats in null sec PVP HARDCORE OMG AREA - no one, u know why? Cause they make more money in empire ganking haulers. Are you playing the same game we are? Why should i PVP? Cause you want me to? Uh no, missions, hell yeh, lp rewards, hells yes. PvP solo then get ganked by a dudes mates in 15 ambushes in one night cause most pvpers are cowards? Nah, ill pass

No buddy, the people who effed this game up are the pvpers, no the pve's buddy, the pvp pilots

And as per usual pvp pilot crap, there trying to shfit the blame to the pve lot.

go play wow? why? i never once ubsubbed my wow account, i love it, i play lotro, aion, minecraft, my xbox and ps3, all this whislt being married with 4 kids mate. back to the start of around 05 when pvpers started messing with pve pilots then UR OMG UBER WTF PWNAGE eve online began to bugger up, guess whose to blame buddy? guess whose really to blame?

You


Could you please translate this in to an actual language? Because that was definately not English.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#139 - 2012-06-20 15:30:28 UTC
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
I have been reading many arguments about the pvp community telling players how to play EvE. So I have a question to the pve community itself, note not all of the pve community is included in this question.

I have heard a lot of pve miners who say to leave them alone in mining in high sec. Stating that mining in high sec is a easy to to play without playing. Having heard someone once state " mining in high sec is the easiest way for me to play while doing homework".I have read many statements just like that. Where people want to have an area where they can afk or not have to pay little attention to there game while they progress at the task at hand.

Question: what other mmo actually allows you to do that?

From my years of playing a wide varity of mmo's I have yet to find one that allows what you suggest to actually take place. In fact the only way I have seen that happen is through botting. Which if I remember correctly there is not a mmo in the world that allows a player to do that.

So basically you came to one of the most violent and grief filled pvp games in the world and ask to be left alone. Seeing how this is not WoW or any other mmo that dosen't have random mobs popping up on u at every second, or a separate pve sever for you to play on, which even in games like that u still have to pay attention to your screen and actively play the game. I mean this is no different execept that instead of an npc mob attacking u while u gather its a player.

So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions?


Hi, Mittani alt? cause this is all Mittani shite. You know whats in null sec PVP HARDCORE OMG AREA - no one, u know why? Cause they make more money in empire ganking haulers. Are you playing the same game we are? Why should i PVP? Cause you want me to? Uh no, missions, hell yeh, lp rewards, hells yes. PvP solo then get ganked by a dudes mates in 15 ambushes in one night cause most pvpers are cowards? Nah, ill pass

No buddy, the people who effed this game up are the pvpers, no the pve's buddy, the pvp pilots

And as per usual pvp pilot crap, there trying to shfit the blame to the pve lot.

go play wow? why? i never once ubsubbed my wow account, i love it, i play lotro, aion, minecraft, my xbox and ps3, all this whislt being married with 4 kids mate. back to the start of around 05 when pvpers started messing with pve pilots then UR OMG UBER WTF PWNAGE eve online began to bugger up, guess whose to blame buddy? guess whose really to blame?

You


You're the guy still playing LOTRO? Hey, thanks for keeping that alive. Meanwhile, EvEs over here with steadily increasing sub numbers. EvE's dying the painful death of more people.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Olleybear
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#140 - 2012-06-20 22:31:03 UTC
Disclaimer: I am at work and not completly focused on the thread so I may be overlooking something.

If people are worried about miners being afk / semi-afk and making isk, what about these other activities:

POS mining continues to occur when the person who put up the pos is offline.
Manufacturing continues to take place and does not stop simply because the bpo / bpc owner goes out to dinner.
Planetary Interaction is set and forget except for a few occasional mouse clicks and you even get to choose the time of those mouse clicks.
Market orders a pilot puts up and sells when they are not only afk, but offline, is the safest way to make isk in the game because you never even have to leave the station to do it.
When I leave my alt cloaked in a system and occasionally glance at the screen to get an update on possible targets my alt is just sitting there, for hours, and I have all the intel I would ever need while semi-afk.

This hate against miners being afk / semi-afk is baffling.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.