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NPC corps should not be safe havens for players

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Betrinna Cantis
#161 - 2012-06-18 23:36:00 UTC
]

One of the "rules" is this:

Don't trust anyone.

What an awesome rule for a cooperative multiplayer game eh?

Sadly, this rule is 100% pure wisdom in EvE as I discovered the hard way long ago.[/quote]
This is also a "rule" in the prison system. If you want to make things really interesting... Link API's to main charaters to their alts so that when the main is at war their alt is also....Roll

Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares.....
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-06-18 23:46:29 UTC
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
]

If you want to make things really interesting... Link API's to main charaters to their alts so that when the main is at war their alt is also....Roll


I wish that would have an effect, but people have multiple accounts as well as alts on a single account
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#163 - 2012-06-18 23:52:04 UTC
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
This is also a "rule" in the prison system. If you want to make things really interesting... Link API's to main charaters to their alts so that when the main is at war their alt is also....Roll

That is actually the first thing they asked last time I was in prison.

I was all standing there naked, covered in flea powder, with some guard shouting at me "LINK ME YOUR API NEWB".

It was horrifying

xxx

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2012-06-18 23:55:12 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.

But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.

Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you.

True as this is, things like "the nature of the game" or "economic needs" still create inclination for an individual to subject themselves to loss unless at need or risk of losing something they value greater. Those come from other desires within the person themselves. My initial response was more to the somewhat commonly put forth notion that not enjoying ship to ship PvP specifically, and actively avoiding it is an indication that one is playing the wrong game.

I like this game for other reasons entirely than "PvP in every act" or the player driven market, but those do help contribute to my enjoyment of the game as it gives a self sustaining life to the game and it's players. As you say risk does at times provide some sense of achievement, but a goal in and of itself it is not. In the end I could just be doing it wrong, but it was my thought that, if you could get away with it, there was no wrong way to play.

Perhaps I was mistaken.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#165 - 2012-06-19 00:04:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.

But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.

Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you.

True as this is, things like "the nature of the game" or "economic needs" still create inclination for an individual to subject themselves to loss unless at need or risk of losing something they value greater. Those come from other desires within the person themselves. My initial response was more to the somewhat commonly put forth notion that not enjoying ship to ship PvP specifically, and actively avoiding it is an indication that one is playing the wrong game.

I like this game for other reasons entirely than "PvP in every act" or the player driven market, but those do help contribute to my enjoyment of the game as it gives a self sustaining life to the game and it's players. As you say risk does at times provide some sense of achievement, but a goal in and of itself it is not. In the end I could just be doing it wrong, but it was my thought that, if you could get away with it, there was no wrong way to play.

Perhaps I was mistaken.

There is no "wrong way to play", but game mechanics and game design philosophies are something decided out of game.

Everything is allowed within the mechanics of the game, but when it comes to discussions on what those mechanics should be anything goes. It is important however to remember, as many people on these forums are liable to forget, that there is no disconnected "I'm not effecting anyone else" play style.

Everyone in Eve has an impact, whether they are impacting the market and actively causing mudflation or driving new players away via griefing. As such mechanics must, at times, be designed to limit the negative impact of certain play styles.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#166 - 2012-06-19 00:06:03 UTC
FireT wrote:
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
FireT wrote:
Similarly if you force everyone to fight CCP will have a mass exodus of your infamous carebears.

There was no mass exodus during Hulkageddon Infinity, nor during the PI fix, or Inferno, etc.
The only time mass exoduses have ever happened was when CCP began catering to carebears by implementing exclusively risk-free commodity/isk faucets, like Incursion, Incarna and Tyrannis. This is because the enjoyment derived by most players in EVE is from overcoming adversity, usually in the form of other players.

Players only use NPC corps to stick their PVE characters in because it competitively advantageous to do so. If NPC Corps were removed, or made risky in some manner, players would adapt; just like how the use of Covetors has exploded in highsec in the face of Hulk-pilot genocide - not by mass unsubs.

In short, your threat is an empty one, and we should go full on ahead in the move to ban NPC corps in the pursuit of a better, more balanced game.


Um, links to numbers please? I've played since EA and the only mass exodus that I have been privy to was the Incarna Exodus, of which my original character was a part of.


No need for numbers. Use your brain.

You yourself mentioned that people left because of Incarna. An expansion designed o try something new and that HAD NO IMPACT on your PvP. Yet ragers raged and quit.

Now imagine the OP's idea and the fact that it actually DOES affect people and their play style. You really think that people will remain if their type of preferred gaming is gone? Really?


Actually, no, there is a need for numbers. A claim has been made stating that there were mass exoduses because of multiple expansions. I'm asking for solid numbers, because using my head means not believing everything i read as the absolute truth without questioning it. Incarna was a massive failure in and of itself, which is why people left in droves and CCP backpedaled so fast we all actually de-aged a little bit. From Quantum Rise to Incursion, I never once saw anything resembling an exodus. People left because the game was stale, and the few additions made were ships that were relatively niche and for the most part useless. Saying people left because of a lack of PvP is really reaching, because those expansions saw things like Hulkageddon being born, and an upswing in hisec ganks, as well as nulsec shifting like a violently shaking amoebic lifeform.

Honestly, let NPC corps be decced, under the exact same rules as deccing a PC corp, i.e. if there are 500 players in this corp, then you have to pay the cost for deccing a 500 player corp. Additionally, you are free game to NPC forces of that corp, and can be attacked at will by them. You can, of course, attack those forces as well. Personally, I hope CCP gives you what you want, just be sure you want what you get.

One thing people really need to remember is that the term SANDBOX only applies as long as you are not coming into contact with anyone else. As soon as you do, the game ceases being a true sandbox and becomes more of a battle of wills, to see who will get their way and who will have to get out of the way. Essentially, I can do whatever I want in a sandbox when I am by myself. however, once others join me, my choices diminish. This holds true for each successive member joining in the box.

John Hancock
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-06-19 00:07:53 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks.


This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness.

Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war.

Rookie Corps are not the same as Bittervet NPC Corps.

Make NPC corps dec-vulnerable.

Leave Rookie corps alone.

All semblance of ill-intent vanishes, because a rookie cannot be in an NPC corp without having first joined a player corp to get out of the Rookie corp.

Clear as mud, right?


What happens when someone joins a player corp after 2 days, corp folds/gets kicked/doesn't like it, and goes back to an NPC corp? Not everyone in the other corps are bitter vets and bots.
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2012-06-19 00:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Hammer Crendraven
Moved to correct thread.
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-06-19 00:20:13 UTC
There's a solution to deal with multiples accounts.
A security standings lost (with a warning window) when you deal (by contracts, market, etc.) with a character with a negative status. If you deal with criminals, you're certainly one of them !
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#170 - 2012-06-19 00:24:04 UTC
I saw Arnon and thought of Socratic, is he still picking on mission runners after his sudden sec status loss?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#171 - 2012-06-19 00:29:23 UTC
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
I did not know Arnon was on the protected list. So if I complain to a GM about the 2 can flipers that got me last month in Arnon when I was only weeks old then I can get them baned. Hmm and it so happens they both have posted in threads like this one recently as well. I can see the fear they have in their posts. They are guilty of this and it is not just me, they have done this repeatedly to many rookies in Arnon. It is what they do daily. The people that do this do it as a way of life. Grief on the newbies.
I think the GM's know this as well. That is why they come down on them so hard. It is never just one mistake like some of these posters want you to believe. They prey upon the rookies as a way of life and are most upset that the GM's are making their playstyle off limits.

Believe it or not, not all of us are evil high sec griefers.

However there is a difference between picking on noobs, and picking on 3 year old NPC corp jump freighter pilots.

Kyle Valentine wrote:
There's a solution to deal with multiples accounts.
A security standings lost (with a warning window) when you deal (by contracts, market, etc.) with a character with a negative status. If you deal with criminals, you're certainly one of them !

This would certainly make selling my pirate character's deadspace loot in Jita more interesting.

I think I might actually suicide gank a few things on my market alts just so I can grief everyone who buys anything from me.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Betrinna Cantis
#172 - 2012-06-19 00:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Betrinna Cantis
Smile
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
This is also a "rule" in the prison system. If you want to make things really interesting... Link API's to main charaters to their alts so that when the main is at war their alt is also....Roll

That is actually the first thing they asked last time I was in prison.

I was all standing there naked, covered in flea powder, with some guard shouting at me "LINK ME YOUR API NEWB".

It was horrifying

xxx

HE,HE DID What??Shocked I agree that many player run Corps use NPC characters to do their business while in a war dec. I myself am guilty. I just don't think you should be forced into combat if you do not wish to. If you get popped while mining some belt or stolen from in some site, You have a choice to retalliate against the offender...or run and hide. If you chose #1 90% of the time the offender is too afraid to engage you face to face. Why do you think it is called Suicide? Many people hide in NPC corps just for do it.(raises hand), I just don't think you want the weight of an entire Empire on you ass for the duration of you game experience. I do not see this happening anytime in the future. I know some bigger Alliances(you know who you are...) would endorse this either. I do agree the NPC corp hopping needs some love and there are SOME penalties in a war dec situation where if you leave a player owned corp. When I joined this game, I had the advantage of a friend giving me the "scoop" on things and I still joined. Since then, I (my main) has met some great people and have many friends in several locations and playstyles. I have learned much from all of them and have tought a thing or two also. I live in high sec and I mine and mission and do som industry and also pvp from time to time. That is what I enjoy. I have been in war dec's lost a POS and kicked the last ones ass. Call me a carebear or whatever. I have had many former corpmates offer me jobs in their Null alliances because I have a skill set most of the like. I am a loyal person to people who treat me good in my corporation and am one of the leaders in it. It has been around way longer than I have so I consider it a compliment that they trust me with decisions that matter. New people have to have that chance too. This game is not all about pew pew. There are some good people out there, you just have to find them. Getting rid of NPC corps would destroy the ability to find those people with like minds as yourselve

Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares.....
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#173 - 2012-06-19 00:34:20 UTC
Henry Haphorn wrote:
My goodness, OP.

Stop acting like the carebears who have entitlement issues. If you can't wardec them, GANK THEM!!!!!!!

You can do that, you know. Just find the target, ships scan them, bring out a Catalyst, Thorax, or maybe a Tornado and shoot them. CCP will not ban you for that. In fact, they highly encouraged it. So what if you lose sec status? There are ways to get around that, you know.

I'm in a NPC corp and I had no problems shooting some mining ships. And the ironic part is that I'm a miner as well.


This.

The fact that NPC corps can't be war decced does not mean the pilots are safe. The logic fails on the first assumption. Of course you are going to stomp your feet for a while to make yourself feel sufficiently badass.
loard doktor
tradersbear
#174 - 2012-06-19 00:41:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Donte wrote:
EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".

So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?

Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.

I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.

Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Twisted

Thoughts?


I agree, to an extent.

I think NPC corps should be wardecablle, but the fee higher AND toons less than 6 months old should be immune.

It's just wrong that a game like this has un-deccable hiding spots. Either npc corps should be war-deccable OR players in npc corps should be restricted from doing anything that affects the game like making isk or shooting people.


Translation: new players that have no clue whats going on should be forced to either quit, never do a single thing, or play YOUR game YOUR way instead of theirs. WITHOUT EVER HAVING THE CHANCE TO LEARN WHAT IS WHAT.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2012-06-19 00:42:55 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

There is no "wrong way to play", but game mechanics and game design philosophies are something decided out of game.

Everything is allowed within the mechanics of the game, but when it comes to discussions on what those mechanics should be anything goes. It is important however to remember, as many people on these forums are liable to forget, that there is no disconnected "I'm not effecting anyone else" play style.

Everyone in Eve has an impact, whether they are impacting the market and actively causing mudflation or driving new players away via griefing. As such mechanics must, at times, be designed to limit the negative impact of certain play styles.

No doubt the game mechanics and philosophies have certain goals in mind, but those goals often assume things about player goals. When players goals and/or means of pursuing them don't fall in line with what you had in mind, what do you do? Do you accept it and admit that the nature of the game you created opened this unforeseen possibility? Or do you forcefully guide and correct their way of play, creating camps of those that are doing it right and those that aren't?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2012-06-19 00:45:03 UTC
Kyle Valentine wrote:
There's a solution to deal with multiples accounts.
A security standings lost (with a warning window) when you deal (by contracts, market, etc.) with a character with a negative status. If you deal with criminals, you're certainly one of them !

How does one prevent sale to someone with negative security status on the market or a public contract?
loard doktor
tradersbear
#177 - 2012-06-19 00:45:30 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
The fact that NPC corps can't be war decced does not mean the pilots are safe. The logic fails on the first assumption. Of course you are going to stomp your feet for a while to make yourself feel sufficiently badass.



SAFE?

what game are you playing.

NO ONE IS SAFE in eve. you can be killed anywhere.

not long ago, I was killed by a corp member, because I was too new to know that you cant enter a station while under attack, and fleet members can attack you without warning.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#178 - 2012-06-19 00:48:36 UTC
loard doktor wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
The fact that NPC corps can't be war decced does not mean the pilots are safe. The logic fails on the first assumption. Of course you are going to stomp your feet for a while to make yourself feel sufficiently badass.



SAFE?

what game are you playing.

NO ONE IS SAFE in eve. you can be killed anywhere.

not long ago, I was killed by a corp member, because I was too new to know that you cant enter a station while under attack, and fleet members can attack you without warning.

a) Corp members can attack you. Not fleet members.

b) Yes, you can enter a station while under attack.

c) Certain strategies currently available in game can render you very essentially impervious to reprisal.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
loard doktor
tradersbear
#179 - 2012-06-19 00:54:45 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
It would be awesome if NPC corps could be war decced.

That way, inflation in this game would not run rampant because some people just make ISK for the sake of making ISK, and they would be forced to lose their super expensive faction fitted loot pinatas, which would encourage them to buy new stuff and help the market doing so.


It would appear you have no understanding of what causes inflation. Large sums of money constantly being made (missions etc), and very little out go, causes increase supply of money. That makes it less valuable. Moving money around doesnt do a thing to stop inflation.
loard doktor
tradersbear
#180 - 2012-06-19 00:57:39 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

a) Corp members can attack you. Not fleet members.

b) Yes, you can enter a station while under attack.

c) Certain strategies currently available in game can render you very essentially impervious to reprisal.


a) She had me join a fleet so she could do so. You get a warning when you join fleets, but I didnt fully realise what it meant

b) the station would allow it.

c) I know little about these. This acccount is only about a month old, but I know Ive been attacked while in a newbe corp before.