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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Attack frigate changes

First post First post
Author
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#301 - 2012-07-23 19:37:04 UTC
Hey everyone.

After taking some feedback on the changes and testing on sisi, we're going to give the Executioner back it's 3 powergrid, bumping it back up to 45.

Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming. We're going to keep watching and tweaking these ships.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Loki Vice
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#302 - 2012-07-23 19:48:56 UTC
why does the slasher now have more scan resolution than the stiletto?
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#303 - 2012-07-23 21:20:31 UTC
Fozzie, I take it you're on the ship balancing team now? Seems like there's been a fair bit of shuffling, who else is in there now?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#304 - 2012-07-23 22:11:09 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Fozzie, I take it you're on the ship balancing team now? Seems like there's been a fair bit of shuffling, who else is in there now?


Ytterbium is still doing ship balancing, and Tallest is back from his paternity leave now so I'm the third member of the balancing team. Lots of work ahead of us so CCP decided to do what any self respecting capsuleer would do and blob the problem.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Kraschyn Thek'athor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2012-07-23 22:32:30 UTC
Nearly a bit too good buffing for the T1 Tacklers.


Tormentor, Idea 1: The Speed-Logistic
Role Bonus for Small Remote Armor Repper Cap use
- Range Bonus for Small Remote Armor Repper
- Armor Resistance

Argument:
- Capitals have Carriers/Supers as Logisitics
- Subcaps have T2 and incoming T1 Logistic Cruisers.
- Fast Ships have nothing that doesn't slow them down.


Tormentor, Idea 2: The Smartbomber
- Range Boni for Smartbombs
- Damage Boni

(and yes, you will see them in Alliance Tournament afterwards)


Tormentor, Idea 3: The Courier
We have currently no specialised Courier Ship.



Tech 2 Tormentor, the Pod Taxi:
Everyone knows the problem in big battles. Either you suicide, or let yourself shoot, or it will be a long way home.
(or your Alliance puts an Titan into a Forcefield)
How about a Pod Taxi? You can Dock your Pod on the Tech2 Tormentor, up to.... lets say 10x Pods and it is the first Frig with Jump Drive. If docking is too complicated, it can "Jump" up to 10x Pods from your Alliance in 1000m surrounding.
Or it become a mobile Jumpbridge that goes into "siege" during usage. ^^

A Jump Fuel Bay, no Cargohold, no Turret/Missile Slots.
Tex Bloodhunter
SciFiCentral Explorations Inc.
#306 - 2012-07-23 23:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tex Bloodhunter
How about balancing Interceptors at the same time? Looking at the T1 hulls without considering the T2 variants can hardly be done without creating inconsistencies. For example a Condor with 4 med slots has super strong range control, allowing it to kill quite a few T1 and T2 frigs with ease. Although advanced range control is a sensible thing to have on a dedicated tackler it seems odd that the T1 hull performs better at its task than its T2 variants. There have been quite a few other inconsistencies reported in this thread.

If you consider combat frigs and assault ships (Rifter vs. Jaguar/Wolf) you can see a strong increase in performance. The T1 hulls are not even nearly as good as their T2 variants. You don't have to think twice if T1 or T2 is the better choice here. With the new attack frig chances there actually isn't that much of a difference between the ships anymore. Basically Interceptors have twice the EHP (which assault ships have even more of) and the sig bonus (which assault ships get as well). Is that what makes the Interceptor a dedicated and highly specialized ship class? There should be a more distinct difference.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#307 - 2012-07-24 00:28:19 UTC
Tex Bloodhunter wrote:
How about balancing Interceptors at the same time? Looking at the T1 hulls without considering the T2 variants can hardly be done without creating inconsistencies. For example a Condor with 4 med slots has super strong range control, allowing it to kill quite a few T1 and T2 frigs with ease. Although advanced range control is a sensible thing to have on a dedicated tackler it seems odd that the T1 hull performs better at its task than its T2 variants. There have been quite a few other inconsistencies reported in this thread.

If you consider combat frigs and assault ships (Rifter vs. Jaguar/Wolf) you can see a strong increase in performance. The T1 hulls are not even nearly as good as their T2 variants. You don't have to think twice if T1 or T2 is the better choice here. With the new attack frig chances there actually isn't that much of a difference between the ships anymore. Basically Interceptors have twice the EHP (which assault ships have even more of) and the sig bonus (which assault ships get as well). Is that what makes the Interceptor a dedicated and highly specialized ship class? There should be a more distinct difference.


I agree that the T2 variants should be looked at simultaneously with the T1 variants. Interceptors are all about two things: speed and light damage (they are great harassers.) There are two variants of interceptors for each race. One variant should specialize in speed but be worse at everything else for it (while still doing more damage than other ships that don't specialize in damage,) and the other should specialize in damage but be worse at everything else for it (while still having more speed than other ships that don't specialize in speed.) The T1 variant should do both jobs, but neither as well as either specialist. IE more speed than the high damage interceptor, and more damage than the high speed interceptor, but not exceeding either at their actual specialties.

The propulsion jamming bonus is just silly. As long as they can use a warp scrambler/disruptor, does the bonus really need to be there? They already have the advantages of speed and damage.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#308 - 2012-07-24 02:28:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Fozzie, I take it you're on the ship balancing team now? Seems like there's been a fair bit of shuffling, who else is in there now?


Ytterbium is still doing ship balancing, and Tallest is back from his paternity leave now so I'm the third member of the balancing team. Lots of work ahead of us so CCP decided to do what any self respecting capsuleer would do and blob the problem.


Sounds like a smart move, 2-3 heads and sets of hands are better than one... :)
If you need help with anything I would love to be a 4th head lol, and I will even do it for free Blink

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#309 - 2012-07-24 02:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
Tex Bloodhunter wrote:
How about balancing Interceptors at the same time? Looking at the T1 hulls without considering the T2 variants can hardly be done without creating inconsistencies. For example a Condor with 4 med slots has super strong range control, allowing it to kill quite a few T1 and T2 frigs with ease. Although advanced range control is a sensible thing to have on a dedicated tackler it seems odd that the T1 hull performs better at its task than its T2 variants. There have been quite a few other inconsistencies reported in this thread.

If you consider combat frigs and assault ships (Rifter vs. Jaguar/Wolf) you can see a strong increase in performance. The T1 hulls are not even nearly as good as their T2 variants. You don't have to think twice if T1 or T2 is the better choice here. With the new attack frig chances there actually isn't that much of a difference between the ships anymore. Basically Interceptors have twice the EHP (which assault ships have even more of) and the sig bonus (which assault ships get as well). Is that what makes the Interceptor a dedicated and highly specialized ship class? There should be a more distinct difference.


Your forgetting one specially little bonus that makes the t2 interceptor better than this t1 version still... signature reduction for interceptors is mega awesome and perfect as it is.

I personly feel that interceptors er perfectly fine right now as they are, at maximum they only need some small tweaking, but nothing huge

only thing I can think of is to make interceptors accelerate faster in warp to max warp speed, and come to complete stop faster when comming out of warp (perhaps a 15-20% bonus to acceleration/deacceleration of warp speed per level)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#310 - 2012-07-24 02:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Fozzie, I take it you're on the ship balancing team now? Seems like there's been a fair bit of shuffling, who else is in there now?


Tallest is back from his paternity leave now .

I hope this means that we'll see some meaningful hybrid fixes soon Cool

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Buffalo Toker
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#311 - 2012-07-24 05:47:43 UTC
1. Finally introduce Blaze/Lux crystals
2. Harvest tears
Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians
#312 - 2012-07-24 09:54:20 UTC
This is a bit hilarious, now the condor is like the crow, but 95% cheaper.

I wonder what will they do to ceptors after this T1 buff, since the only advantage of ceptors over T1 frigs will be the signature reduction, which is a good thing, but not enough.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#313 - 2012-07-24 10:00:07 UTC
I never thought I'd say this, but I can totally see myself flying the Condor for cheap tackle lulz with this change. Love it.

Might even make a passable kiting frigate. Hmm...
Denuo Secus
#314 - 2012-07-24 10:12:28 UTC
In the past Caldari ships were slow but still quite agile. Seeing the new balanced frigs this scheme seems to change. I'm a bit concerned this would remove some cool tactical abilities from Caldari ships they have at the moment.

They can outmaneuver even faster opponents just by better agility. Also using tactical warps works nice. Kiting works since they react faster on speed changes - even if a Caldari ship wouldn't win a race on a straight line. Beeing underestimated as "slow faction" helps too.

But beeing slow AND sluggish makes them a lot less appealing for small gang or solo PvP Sad
Doddy
Excidium.
#315 - 2012-07-24 10:53:07 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
I am fighting with frigates on a daily bases and I found that:

Merlin and Incursus are WAY overpowered at the moment.

I have been in situations where a dual medium ancillary shield merlin can tank over 330 dps (without bonuses) and do more then 150 dps. Even a buffer tanked merlin can have almost 8k tank (with web-scram-ab) with over 210 dps overheated wich is insane.
Same goes for dual rep Incursus wich can tank 150 dps capstable without a problem.
As it stands now those two frigates can easily beat any Faction frigate and even T2 Assault ships.
As for the Rifter that is completely useless now with it's pathetic 130 dps and 4.5k tank compared to the Merlin and Incursus mentioned above.

I have not trained all my skills to see my Faction Frig or T2 Assaultship be pwned by a T1 frigate.


This is actually nonsense, at least when it comes to incursus (never flown an asb merlin). To tank a properly fit/flown assault frig/faction frig the incursus needs to be fit in such a way that; a) its incredibly slow (ab+ 3 amour rig nerf) and so can be kited effectively or escaped from by pretty much any frig not flown by an idiot: b) reliant on cap boosters, probably navy 400s if it is to have any neut protection meaning when it is getting kited it is dead no matter what; c) it has completely anemic dps unless the enemy just sits on top of it. Finally unless the reps are managed perfectly the burst damage from a gank frig like enyo will get through regardless.

Basically an incursus that has any chance of killing a non idiot enyo or daredevil (if that is even possible) will likely be kited and killed by a rifter that knows what it is doing. If it is fit to tank a kite (i.e. cap stable) it will not have enough tank to withstand a gank frig. This is basically how eve is meant to be. A dramiel or wolf is pretty much able to kite and gank an incursus at the same time.

The extent to which the incursus and merlin are op compared to ther t1 frig will be reduced by the continuing buffs of said frigs (even a dual asb merlin is very kitable). The rifter is a little sad at the moment however, even more so when these new tackler buffs are introduced.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#316 - 2012-07-24 12:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Hey boys and girls,

I'm still looking at ship balancing as well, but I just came back from vacation so had to pass the torch to CCP Fozzie regarding frigate balancing while I was away. As he mentioned, with the addition of CCP Tallest, we are now 3 Devs assigned to ship balancing, which should speed up things quite a bit Cool.

As CCP Fozzie grabbed the tech 1 frigate overhaul while I was away and is doing a great job at it, he'll finish that ship class rebalancing so we don't get even more confused here - please be nice to him P. We all three are a few desks apart and constantly talking to each other regarding our respective changes so what we post is always reviewed by all parties anyway.

In the meantime, I will start looking at the destroyer class as mentioned in the last ship balancing blog and will post changes in this forum section when they are ready for external review.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#317 - 2012-07-24 12:41:58 UTC
so what class is ccp tallest working on?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#318 - 2012-07-24 13:14:43 UTC
Tallest is currently doing the mining barge rebalance for Inferno 1.2

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#319 - 2012-07-24 13:16:27 UTC
and then cruisers? :)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#320 - 2012-07-24 14:06:26 UTC
Another update, we're going to add one powergrid to the Condor and remove one from the Slasher.

Condor will have 35 pwg and the Slasher 34 pwg.

Should give the Condor a bit more breathing room and help distance the Slasher role slightly more from the Rifter role.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie