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An argument against supposed "Goon Tears"

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Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#1 - 2012-06-16 19:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alia Gon'die
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You are right about the brightness part, or are intentionally being obtuse. Take your pick.

1. Goons declared war, not the other way around.
2. Jade set it mutual, as per the game mechanics, thereby locking goons into a forever war.
3. Jade added a ton of allies. all who wanted a piece of goons in high / low sec. Once again, using the new war dec mechanics.
4. Goons started getting hammered in empire. Jade and allies never had any intention of fighting in null.
5. Goons cried.
6. Someone at CCP on incredibly short notice announced sweeping, immediate changes to the brand new war dec mechanics, making it impossible for Jade and allies to continue the war economically, plus giving goons a way to end the war after 2 weeks.
7. Rage on the forums.


Do you have any evidence of number 5 there? Anything whose veracity can be verified? TIA

Edit: Also, about this hammering in empirething, is this the source for that? Because Goons losing 20 ships hardly counts as getting hammered?

For those who may not be able to see the picture it breaks down like this:

Started 2012.05.03
Goonswarm Federation............................................The Honda Accord
7,285,184,083 ISK killed...........................................18,717,564,832 ISK killed
43 ships killed.............................................................363 Ships Killed

Started 2012.05.18
Test Alliance Please Ignore......................................The Honda Accord
514,059,187 ISK killed...............................................15,981,308,283 ISK killed
8 Ships Killed...............................................................598 Ships Killed

Started 2012.05.31
Goonswarm Federation.............................................The Star Fraction
1,511,365,668 ISK Killed...........................................10,214,708,243 ISK Killed
20 Ships Killed............................................................62 Ships Killed

These numbers come straight from the post Jade Constantine made on EN24.

So how do these numbers add up to Goonswarm getting their butts kicked so hard they started to cry? Losses like these are fairly commonplace for Goons, and they generally don't seem to care about huge losses.

In addition, I have yet to see anyone, including Jade, offer any real evidence of these supposed "Goon Tears". I always get told to go look for the evidence myself. Well I looked for the evidence, and I didn't come back with anything substantiative.

The interpretation that I have to make from all of this evidence is that none of these "Goon Tears" took place, and that Jade Constantine is simply trying to whip people up into a frenzy for his own goals.

This seeming hatred of Goonswarm by Jade probably stems from the fact that we whomped his BFFs BoB back in the day, and he is still carrying a grudge from that.

Edit: It has been pointed out to me that I was reading the chart I cited wrong. I apologize for this incorrect use of evidence and retract it.

However, despite this I still fail to find any evidence supporting the claim of "goon tears". Even losses of this size aren't that big of a deal to Goons. And I still have yet to be shown where the tears exist.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-06-16 19:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Xython
It's just a stupid forum meme. "Oh, Goonies cried cause they couldn't take being attacked at random."

We live in Nullsec. We are at war with everyone at all times in Nullsec. We literally didn't give two squirts of **** about being perma-wardecced -- it just meant that we could shoot more idiots like Jade. Hell, we don't even GO to Highsec on our mains 99% of the time.

No, what happened is Jade found a nice exploit, pre-announced that he was going to exploit it, included a nice little "and if I'm stopped it's cause GOONIES CRIED LOL" bit in his announcement that he was going to exploit, and then when it was fixed, welp, "goonies cried lol".

There were no "Goons whining" threads. They don't exist. If they did, believe me, the moronic sockpuppets ranting about all this would link them in every thread.

Oh, and while I'm ranting: There's no "GoonCCP" conspiracy. We're just better at EVE than the highsec pubbies, and it pisses them off. It's cute seeing them cry, though.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2012-06-16 19:17:25 UTC
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-06-16 19:18:03 UTC
Is Honda that corp that has like 20 new allies that join them every single day?

How much is Honda paying all these merceneries to cry about us on the forums again?
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-06-16 19:26:18 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?newsTitle=new-forum-rules-on-tuesday-july-12

As per these new forum rules, this thread will be locked very soon as it only exists to troll.
Nyreanya
Serenity Labs
#6 - 2012-06-16 19:29:38 UTC
But I thought everything bad was either due to miners or Goons. So we should blame this on the miners I guess.

[/sarcasm]
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#7 - 2012-06-16 19:30:42 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?newsTitle=new-forum-rules-on-tuesday-july-12

As per these new forum rules, this thread will be locked very soon as it only exists to troll.


But I'm not aiming to troll, I'm posting a legitimate argument, the type of argument that is regularly asked for on the forums and is seldom given. I'm sorry that you think I'm trying to troll, but that simply isn't the case.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#8 - 2012-06-16 19:33:19 UTC
Xython wrote:
It's just a stupid forum meme. "Oh, Goonies cried cause they couldn't take being attacked at random."

We live in Nullsec. We are at war with everyone at all times in Nullsec. We literally didn't give two squirts of **** about being perma-wardecced -- it just meant that we could shoot more idiots like Jade. Hell, we don't even GO to Highsec on our mains 99% of the time.

No, what happened is Jade found a nice exploit, pre-announced that he was going to exploit it, included a nice little "and if I'm stopped it's cause GOONIES CRIED LOL" bit in his announcement that he was going to exploit, and then when it was fixed, welp, "goonies cried lol".

There were no "Goons whining" threads. They don't exist. If they did, believe me, the moronic sockpuppets ranting about all this would link them in every thread.

Oh, and while I'm ranting: There's no "GoonCCP" conspiracy. We're just better at EVE than the highsec pubbies, and it pisses them off. It's cute seeing them cry, though.


I understand what you're getting at, but if you could please leave the loaded words at the door I'd appreciate it. I really don't want this thread to be overwhelmed by goons anyone and get locked.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#9 - 2012-06-16 19:33:48 UTC
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?newsTitle=new-forum-rules-on-tuesday-july-12

As per these new forum rules, this thread will be locked very soon as it only exists to troll.


But I'm not aiming to troll, I'm posting a legitimate argument, the type of argument that is regularly asked for on the forums and is seldom given. I'm sorry that you think I'm trying to troll, but that simply isn't the case.



Alia, hate to say this, since I agree with you on pretty much everything you've said, but posting from a locked thread will get you in trouble mate. Best to delete the title and ask for a lock yourself.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#10 - 2012-06-16 19:36:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alia Gon'die
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?newsTitle=new-forum-rules-on-tuesday-july-12

As per these new forum rules, this thread will be locked very soon as it only exists to troll.


But I'm not aiming to troll, I'm posting a legitimate argument, the type of argument that is regularly asked for on the forums and is seldom given. I'm sorry that you think I'm trying to troll, but that simply isn't the case.



Alia, hate to say this, since I agree with you on pretty much everything you've said, but posting from a locked thread will get you in trouble mate. Best to delete the title and ask for a lock yourself.


So are you saying that we should just succumb to the noise and not speak with reason?

If I'm going to get in trouble, then I want to get in trouble or posting a reasoned argument.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-06-16 20:02:42 UTC
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?newsTitle=new-forum-rules-on-tuesday-july-12

As per these new forum rules, this thread will be locked very soon as it only exists to troll.


But I'm not aiming to troll, I'm posting a legitimate argument, the type of argument that is regularly asked for on the forums and is seldom given. I'm sorry that you think I'm trying to troll, but that simply isn't the case.


Your intent is irrelevant apparently. If your thread hints at inviting trolls, it's game over for the thread and apparently they will take action. Just trying to warn you.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-06-16 20:03:50 UTC
I think the OP has a legitimate question. If people are going to accuse us of crying over wardecs, they should at least provide examples, or they are the ones trolling.


From our perspective, the whole thing was a big non-issue. We always had wardecs. We've always had idiot members who, against the constant advice to never take their goon character into highsec, would regularly lose haulers full of stuff to war targets in highsec.

What ever goons Honda Accord or whoever have been killing have not stood out at all from the long history of goon losses to fulltime wardec station campers.


I do have one thing to cry about. The ally system makes my evemail icon blink a lot more. It's slightly distracting sometimes.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#13 - 2012-06-16 20:05:24 UTC
Man I was just thinking that this topic totally needed another thread starting.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#14 - 2012-06-16 20:06:59 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?newsTitle=new-forum-rules-on-tuesday-july-12

As per these new forum rules, this thread will be locked very soon as it only exists to troll.


But I'm not aiming to troll, I'm posting a legitimate argument, the type of argument that is regularly asked for on the forums and is seldom given. I'm sorry that you think I'm trying to troll, but that simply isn't the case.


Your intent is irrelevant apparently. If your thread hints at inviting trolls, it's game over for the thread and apparently they will take action. Just trying to warn you.


Then a member of the moderation team can hopefully remove off topic posts from my well reasoned thread.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-06-16 20:10:46 UTC
It's easy to find a post by a member of Goonswarm discussing why technetium should be rebalanced, why supercaps should be rebalanced - but I'm yet to see what are apparently very visible complaints by Goons about getting dogpiled by allies in wardecs. Surely one would think that Goons actually like the idea of random hisec corps locking themselves into being legal targets for us in what would have otherwise been a hilarious foreverwar?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-06-16 20:16:53 UTC
It isnt a well reason argument though.

Listing kill stats even when the Goons have larger losses but insiginificant to them neither proves or dissproves anything in terms of the tear saturation levels.

You could argue the loss from a notable enemy as opposed to a respected one despite abilities might be more "epeen hurtfull" than anything else, it is entirely subjective based on the individuals concerned and the circumstances associted with it.

So trying to make a science out of tears collection in this way is merely conjecture as a result. That obviously applies to both sides of the argument.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Rengerel en Distel
#17 - 2012-06-16 20:18:57 UTC
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You are right about the brightness part, or are intentionally being obtuse. Take your pick.

1. Goons declared war, not the other way around.
2. Jade set it mutual, as per the game mechanics, thereby locking goons into a forever war.
3. Jade added a ton of allies. all who wanted a piece of goons in high / low sec. Once again, using the new war dec mechanics.
4. Goons started getting hammered in empire. Jade and allies never had any intention of fighting in null.
5. Goons cried.
6. Someone at CCP on incredibly short notice announced sweeping, immediate changes to the brand new war dec mechanics, making it impossible for Jade and allies to continue the war economically, plus giving goons a way to end the war after 2 weeks.
7. Rage on the forums.


Do you have any evidence of number 5 there? Anything whose veracity can be verified? TIA

Edit: Also, about this hammering in empirething, is this the source for that? Because Goons losing 20 ships hardly counts as getting hammered?

For those who may not be able to see the picture it breaks down like this:

Started 2012.05.03
Goonswarm Federation............................................The Honda Accord
7,285,184,083 ISK killed...........................................18,717,564,832 ISK killed
43 ships killed.............................................................363 Ships Killed

Started 2012.05.18
Test Alliance Please Ignore......................................The Honda Accord
514,059,187 ISK killed...............................................15,981,308,283 ISK killed
8 Ships Killed...............................................................598 Ships Killed

Started 2012.05.31
Goonswarm Federation.............................................The Star Fraction
1,511,365,668 ISK Killed...........................................10,214,708,243 ISK Killed
20 Ships Killed............................................................62 Ships Killed

These numbers come straight from the post Jade Constantine made on EN24.

So how do these numbers add up to Goonswarm getting their butts kicked so hard they started to cry? Losses like these are fairly commonplace for Goons, and they generally don't seem to care about huge losses.

In addition, I have yet to see anyone, including Jade, offer any real evidence of these supposed "Goon Tears". I always get told to go look for the evidence myself. Well I looked for the evidence, and I didn't come back with anything substantiative.

The interpretation that I have to make from all of this evidence is that none of these "Goon Tears" took place, and that Jade Constantine is simply trying to whip people up into a frenzy for his own goals.

This seeming hatred of Goonswarm by Jade probably stems from the fact that we whomped his BFFs BoB back in the day, and he is still carrying a grudge from that.


You're reading the numbers wrong ... the left side are those that those people have killed, meaning they killed 43, 8 and 20 ... the right side are their losses, meaning they've lost 363, 598 and 62 ... it might not count as getting hammered to the Goons and TEST, but it's still a pretty wide margin.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#18 - 2012-06-16 20:19:14 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
It isnt a well reason argument though.

Listing kill stats even when the Goons have larger losses but insiginificant to them neither proves or dissproves anything in terms of the tear saturation levels.

You could argue the loss from a notable enemy as opposed to a respected one despite abilities might be more "epeen hurtfull" than anything else, it is entirely subjective based on the individuals concerned and the circumstances associted with it.

So trying to make a science out of tears collection in this way is merely conjecture as a result. That obviously applies to both sides of the argument.


Well, as I'm sure you've seen there are plenty of claims of "goon tears" without any actual evidence to back them up.

The numbers part is referring to Jades article on EN24 speaking about Goons getting stomped in highsec. Historically Goons have never cared about numbers. In addition, the numbers on the chart provided by Jade show a laughably low number of losses for Goons.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-06-16 20:19:16 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
It isnt a well reason argument though.

Listing kill stats even when the Goons have larger losses but insiginificant to them neither proves or dissproves anything in terms of the tear saturation levels.

You could argue the loss from a notable enemy as opposed to a respected one despite abilities might be more "epeen hurtfull" than anything else, it is entirely subjective based on the individuals concerned and the circumstances associted with it.

So trying to make a science out of tears collection in this way is merely conjecture as a result. That obviously applies to both sides of the argument.


Far more relevant, is the "Beat on worthless Goon Vermin" train had hardly started rolling when The First Goon put a stop to it.
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#20 - 2012-06-16 20:20:17 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You are right about the brightness part, or are intentionally being obtuse. Take your pick.

1. Goons declared war, not the other way around.
2. Jade set it mutual, as per the game mechanics, thereby locking goons into a forever war.
3. Jade added a ton of allies. all who wanted a piece of goons in high / low sec. Once again, using the new war dec mechanics.
4. Goons started getting hammered in empire. Jade and allies never had any intention of fighting in null.
5. Goons cried.
6. Someone at CCP on incredibly short notice announced sweeping, immediate changes to the brand new war dec mechanics, making it impossible for Jade and allies to continue the war economically, plus giving goons a way to end the war after 2 weeks.
7. Rage on the forums.


Do you have any evidence of number 5 there? Anything whose veracity can be verified? TIA

Edit: Also, about this hammering in empirething, is this the source for that? Because Goons losing 20 ships hardly counts as getting hammered?

For those who may not be able to see the picture it breaks down like this:

Started 2012.05.03
Goonswarm Federation............................................The Honda Accord
7,285,184,083 ISK killed...........................................18,717,564,832 ISK killed
43 ships killed.............................................................363 Ships Killed

Started 2012.05.18
Test Alliance Please Ignore......................................The Honda Accord
514,059,187 ISK killed...............................................15,981,308,283 ISK killed
8 Ships Killed...............................................................598 Ships Killed

Started 2012.05.31
Goonswarm Federation.............................................The Star Fraction
1,511,365,668 ISK Killed...........................................10,214,708,243 ISK Killed
20 Ships Killed............................................................62 Ships Killed

These numbers come straight from the post Jade Constantine made on EN24.

So how do these numbers add up to Goonswarm getting their butts kicked so hard they started to cry? Losses like these are fairly commonplace for Goons, and they generally don't seem to care about huge losses.

In addition, I have yet to see anyone, including Jade, offer any real evidence of these supposed "Goon Tears". I always get told to go look for the evidence myself. Well I looked for the evidence, and I didn't come back with anything substantiative.

The interpretation that I have to make from all of this evidence is that none of these "Goon Tears" took place, and that Jade Constantine is simply trying to whip people up into a frenzy for his own goals.

This seeming hatred of Goonswarm by Jade probably stems from the fact that we whomped his BFFs BoB back in the day, and he is still carrying a grudge from that.


You're reading the numbers wrong ... the left side are those that those people have killed, meaning they killed 43, 8 and 20 ... the right side are their losses, meaning they've lost 363, 598 and 62 ... it might not count as getting hammered to the Goons and TEST, but it's still a pretty wide margin.



Can you show me the original source for that chart? If I'm mistaken then I'll check it and retract that evidence.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
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