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"Self-destruction," When will it be changed?
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Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#41 - 2012-06-17 06:08:03 UTC
PvP is not supposed to be fair. Gank it in 2 mins or cry us a river

~deal with it~

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#42 - 2012-06-17 06:35:46 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Masikari wrote:
I always lol at KB-Humpers. Who frigging cares? SD is a legitimate tactic, get over it. Want the KM? Bring more DPS! Honestly, fail PvPers are the biggest whiners of them all.

Let's be honest, the people self destructing are the KB humpers.


Exactly!

Also all those posters saying you should "kill faster" are in fact saying you should zerg/blob more.

I think as soon as you set self destruct your pod should eject from the ship, and Code Breaker mods can turn off self destruct and open the ship for boarding. It would make sense, it would be fun, it would be balanced!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#43 - 2012-06-17 07:14:42 UTC
Suggested changes to SD mechanics:

- no insurance
- destroys pod
- not possible inside a POS force field
- timer is 10 minutes under aggression (2min without)

.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#44 - 2012-06-17 08:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Apolyon I
Jonni Favorite wrote:
Working as intended. Stop worrying about some stats website and play the game..

then why do ppl SD if they don't worry about stats??

tbh, don't bring the loot in as excuse, loot is irrelevant

I risk my ship, you risk your ship. I win for some reasons and I can't have anything to acknowledge my work.

imagine you went to college for 4 yrs and don't get any certificate to put into your resume

I don't care about either km or loot. I want proof that this guy lost ship to me and shamelessly selfdestruct it
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-06-20 07:39:16 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I don't think anyone wants self destructs removed entirely, however two minute SDs for both rifters and wyverns makes little sense. SD timers should scale with ship size.

Actually, it doesn't much matter, since the self-destruct is probably something which is facilitated through mechanisms which is put in the ship during manufacture, so once it goes off, everything goes off.

Now if we were to argue that the explosion itself should take longer, then I agree.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2012-06-20 07:46:13 UTC
Ohanka wrote:
Why do killmails even really matter.
They provide intel.
Self-destructing to deny someone a killmail also denies them the intel.
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#47 - 2012-06-20 07:56:20 UTC
Let's be honest here; CCP is moving toward "official" killboards and stats. The Mercenary Marketplace is directly tied to the idea that you can see how well a corporation performs in PVP, both in ships killed and ISK destroyed. Right now, it's limited mostly to war decs, but the trend is headed toward the quintessential killboard being canon.

The argument of "kill faster" simply is not an option under many, if not most circumstances. When dealing with ships in the same general class, 2 minutes is usually enough. When dealing with ships of drastically different classes (supercaps vs. capitals, or capitals vs. subcaps), 2 minutes is a very, very short timeline.

It's pointless to act as though killboards do not matter, because they do to the community at large. Supercapital logoff was balanced, self-destruct is next in line.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2012-06-20 08:01:34 UTC
James Arget wrote:
Supercapital logoff was balanced, self-destruct is next in line.
The difference being that logging off was used to ensure you didn't explode; self-destruction is used to ensure that you do…

The “balance” argument kind of loses its edge when the result of the action is exactly what the opponent wants: that the ship goes poof. The “kill faster” argument might not work, but you still get the kill — what being fast enough buys you is information that you might not have otherwise gleamed. It seems like a reasonable reward for being efficient.

That said, yes, SDs could probably be made to provide kill mails just to prove the ship loss, but such a mail should also still be intel-free.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#49 - 2012-06-20 08:08:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:

That said, yes, SDs could probably be made to provide kill mails just to prove the ship loss, but such a mail should also still be intel-free.


That's a good suggestion - just the ship and total value without specific module info.

Denying intel is a legit reason, but currently SD is performed to prevent the lossmail for affecting killboards, ie. to twist reality.

.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-06-20 08:11:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
That said, yes, SDs could probably be made to provide kill mails just to prove the ship loss, but such a mail should also still be intel-free.

I don't see why this should be a point, but to be honest I don't care enough to argue neither for nor against it. The only reason I'd like to see SD create any killmails at all is to discourage e-honoure K/D whores like some NCdot guys I've witnessed first-hand who selfdestructed their drakes because they got trapped in a system, and I'm not joking when they unironically got all cocky about how we weren't "going to get a killmail out of it at least!".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#51 - 2012-06-20 13:28:19 UTC
and for those who feel SD has no practical value beyond denying the winner a KM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling
Gerald Taric
NEO DYNAMICS
#52 - 2012-06-20 14:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerald Taric
Cpt Pugwash wrote:
Self Desrtucting to prevent enemy getting loot or satisfaction of the kill etc is perfectly legitimate.
This.

And some things have to be added:

1.) Obviously the attacker was not able to kill the victim within the self-destruct-timer-count-down.
2.) If the victim decides to surrender, although he might be able to defeat himself, he looses the ship definitely.
3.) It is possible, that the victim decided to take the surprise at the enemy to gain 1-2 seconds in order to escape with his pod?

Anyway: One goal has been reached: To harm the enemy. So what?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-06-20 14:14:16 UTC
If someone would rather selfdestruct their ship than go into a fight and get a lossmail and ruin their precious kill/death ratio, then it's a mechanic which needs looking at. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shareen Dainer
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-06-20 14:19:54 UTC
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
The only real issue of self-destruct is that you receive insurance from it.

Remove insurance payment for self-destruct. That's the same as me blowing up my own car on purpose and receiving money for it.


K, Lets also remove insurance payouts for losses taken:

While at war.
In low sec.
In null sec.
In wormholes.
In missions.
In incursions.

After all, that's the same as driving around in a warzone and receiving money for your wrecked car.

Agreed? No?

Didn't think so.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-06-20 14:24:17 UTC
I see no problems with removing insurance payouts altogether. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shareen Dainer
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-06-20 14:26:46 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
I see no problems with removing insurance payouts altogether. vOv


Fair enough, I'm ok with that, I just find these "remove X cause in real life Y is....." arguments idiotic when discussing game balance :P
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#57 - 2012-06-20 14:56:07 UTC
Roime wrote:
Suggested changes to SD mechanics:

- no insurance
- destroys pod
- not possible inside a POS force field
- timer is 10 minutes under aggression (2min without)



Why not possible in a pos? That seems to be a poor rule design with only the goal of benefiting killboards with out considering other uses of SD.

Also, no insurance and destroys pods can limit people too.

For example, I am in a class 2 wormhole. My corp built a dread or carrier there. We can't get it out, so opt to destroy it to get sije isk out of the loss. Basically, you are saying we must kill our own ship or let sleepers do it. Or worse, I infiltrated a wormhole corp. I popped the other members, so the hole is mine. I can't fly all the ships out, but can pilot them all. O should be able to self destruct each ship, claiming the insurance.

Sorry, but it seems in yout zeal to keep kills on killboards, you are denying people other uses of a feature.


How about this, simple solution that would satisfy all parties....

Rework self destruction such that when the timer expires, it delivers a huge amount of damage to the ship. This woukd be, combat damage, caused by the ship/pilot to iteslf, weapon listed as self destruct, final blow goes to pilot. This would generate a killmail without reducing the functionality.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#58 - 2012-06-20 15:00:02 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Rework self destruction such that when the timer expires, it delivers a huge amount of damage to the ship. This woukd be, combat damage, caused by the ship/pilot to iteslf, weapon listed as self destruct, final blow goes to pilot. This would generate a killmail without reducing the functionality.

So.. you'd get your own killmail?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dusenman
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#59 - 2012-06-20 15:23:47 UTC
Malacath Azaria wrote:
Morganta wrote:
kill things faster



GM Homonoia: In other words; feel free to use the tactic, but don't be an utter and total ***.

CCP Tallest_: _And by "we have made it so", I mean Punkturis has made it so.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#60 - 2012-06-20 15:32:19 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Rework self destruction such that when the timer expires, it delivers a huge amount of damage to the ship. This woukd be, combat damage, caused by the ship/pilot to iteslf, weapon listed as self destruct, final blow goes to pilot. This would generate a killmail without reducing the functionality.

So.. you'd get your own killmail?


Yup, and it would most likely get pulled to the killboards and posted for others to see.

No different than a bomber running into their own bomb. Plus, anyone who did damage/used an offensive mod on the self destructing ship would also be on the killmail.