Player Features and Ideas Discussion

1.) Your proposal does nothing to create isk fraud.

2.) Your proposal does nothing to create isk theft... Instead, it creates isk LOOT. This is not quite the same thing!!! And since we already get cargo loot and module loot, I don't think we NEED isk loot.

3.) In the U.S. (and many countries), from the client's perspective, money in the bank is safe from theft. Once you put your money into the bank, the bank takes responsibility for keeping it safe. (Lookup FDIC insurance.)

4.) In the U.S., when a person steals your credit card and goes on a spending spree, you are held liable for only a very small amount ($50). Again, from the client's perspective, your electronic currency is fairly safe.

5.) All this reduction in liability that the consumer has is paid for by a mixture of bank fees, insurance fees, and government subsidies (i.e. taxes). When looking for realism, I'd expect to see fees associated with my bank account... and OMG, there they are... There are sales taxes and brokers fees for everything we do on the market. FYI, most credit card companies don't make the majority of their mondy by charging interest on account balances or even customer fees; They make their money by charging the retailer a transaction tax on every purchase the consumer makes with their credit card. Amazingly, we have a sales tax in EvE that could easily account for that.

6.) Our isk is NOT completely safe. Scams happen all over that drain isk from those that forgot to read the fine print, misjudged an organization, or whatever. If you buy something that is way overpriced... you lose isk, and there's no recourse!!!

I understand the desire for bank heists, stealing from armored cars, etc... but those are fast becoming tales of the past, and I can easily believe far in the future that all everyday consumer transactions are handled using electronic currency, NOT paper currency.

Finally, you're right that it's unlikely Gurista Outlaw controlled stations, Caldari Stations, and every other NPC faction stations would all use the same base currency. But forcing people to deal with multiple ingame currencies, exchange rates, and the related economic & market difficulties is a level of complexity that I just don't think we need. Besides, in the Real World, mcuh of the currency exchanges happens on a level many consumers are completely oblivous too. For example, when I pay for something in Europe with my U.S. bank account, I often see a currency exchange fee that covers all hastle of converting U.S. dollars into Euros. I even see this when paying CCP (an European Company) with my U.S. bank account. I don't have to go to an international exchange bank, swap currency, and pay CCP in that manner, it's mostly automated from behind the scenes!! One of the major advantages of using CC's on an international trip is I don't have to deal with exchanging money, and I really don't see the need to include such a hastle in EvE either!!!

Here's a couple other ideas that would add realism, but really annoy players:
Ship Fuel... run out and your ships stops, you eventually die, and your ships is suddenly abandoned somewhere in space.
Ship Maintenance... you have to repair ships to keep them going. You could be flying around and have something break, forcing your ship to stop for 10 minutes, and hour, whatever to repair your stuff.
Ship supplies for the crews... moreless the same thing as ship fuel...

I'm sure we could come up with more, but the point is that this is a game, and the features we add shouldn't increase the complexity of the game just for the sake of realism. New features should focus on improving the current gameplay and/or adding new forms of game play.

What new gameplay does this actually create and why would it be good for the game??

CONTINUED

Gizznitt Malikite: 6.) Our isk is NOT completely safe. Scams happen all over that drain isk from those that forgot to read the fine print, misjudged an organization, or whatever. If you buy something that is way overpriced... you lose isk, and there's no recourse!!!

My reply: You are pointing out player judgement issues. The ISK is never at risk directly, but players can choose to make horribly bad investments based on assumptions and bad information. In each case you refer here, it is the player giving the ISK by choice, not being forcibly taken.

Gizznitt Malikite: I understand the desire for bank heists, stealing from armored cars, etc... but those are fast becoming tales of the past, and I can easily believe far in the future that all everyday consumer transactions are handled using electronic currency, NOT paper currency.

My reply: No bank heists were ever described by myself as something I advocate for.
Now, theft while currency is being transported outside the bank is something else. Also, transactions are not at risk any more than before, as that was never involved.

Gizznitt Malikite: Finally, you're right that it's unlikely Gurista Outlaw controlled stations, Caldari Stations, and every other NPC faction stations would all use the same base currency. But forcing people to deal with multiple ingame currencies, exchange rates, and the related economic & market difficulties is a level of complexity that I just don't think we need. Besides, in the Real World, mcuh of the currency exchanges happens on a level many consumers are completely oblivous too. For example, when I pay for something in Europe with my U.S. bank account, I often see a currency exchange fee that covers all hastle of converting U.S. dollars into Euros. I even see this when paying CCP (an European Company) with my U.S. bank account. I don't have to go to an international exchange bank, swap currency, and pay CCP in that manner, it's mostly automated from behind the scenes!! One of the major advantages of using CC's on an international trip is I don't have to deal with exchanging money, and I really don't see the need to include such a hastle in EvE either!!!

My reply: That was an example of another probable risk ISK is immune to. It is not something I advocate either. I am not bringing full realism to ISK here, but a limited aspect of risk that still fits into gameplay.



What we have is a gimmick. Perfect financial transfers? It is as unrealistic as robot butlers and flying cars being commonplace in the year 2000.
Sure, in the 1950's and 60's, people were ready to believe that shiny future, but they were off target when the time came.

We have artificially perfect aspects of the game, for no better reason than in 2003 it was quicker and easier to just gloss over the details.

Among the obvious benefits I see:
It adds a sense of size to the game, and gives freight moving a bigger role.
It gives opportunity for real theft and piracy, since it would become cost effective for corps and alliances to move their own funds.
It will create more distributed trading hubs, and existing hubs will be reduced by obvious high value targets becoming too big to resist. (The Jita ISK convoy was robbed again!)

Good things:
New type of profession this would inspire: Armored ISK Transporting
Similar to freight services, except focused on transporting the ISK cells.

New diffusion effects!:
As currency transport is not always going to be the most practical answer, demand for goods in outlying areas will draw in logistic services to bring goods to where the ISK can be found.

This will cause areas like Jita to become less populated, and open up opportunities for purchase orders filled by third parties willing to risk the distances to fill demands.
(Someone in that area want's 20 thrasher hulls, and they are willing to pay X for them. We can pick them up for half that here, and the difference in profit makes it worth it to us)

I want to put ISK into the game with the rest of us....

I answered this point the first time you made it too.

Hmmm, I see this a bit differently, and I will tell you why.

Demand side economy. It means the goods will look for the ISK, not just the other way around.

You show product where there is ISK, you have trade. Product gets lonely by itself, so it hops on the next freighter out of Jita if it hears about ISK someplace else. Fellow flying that freighter makes shiny profit for giving that product passage.

Fellow at the end of the event meets product, and hands over ISK.

Now, maybe fellow is not lookin for more than a rare purchase, so he loads up his ISK, maybe smuggling style like Grumpy spoke about, maybe not. He heads over to where he thinks his product is priced to his liking, and buys it.

We just know a clone jump by itself won't be enough.

Funny how we can even sit in a wormhole, unable to jump in ships above a certain size, no stations or gates to connect us to empire space... and we can still transfer funds back and forth like that.

Heck, they don't even have a list for local chat there.

LOL, I think I could rephrase the concept here.

There is no in game ISK. If there was, it would add new dynamics I described.

Being able to keep your ISK, in perfect safety and absolute availability, is what you already have.

We pretty much have that at the highest extreme already. Jita is the legendary trader mecca.

For it's region, it always should be. For other regions, not so much.

Heck, it could even transform into a distribution hub for goods after this.

But as to your extremely narrow view on Jita's dominance....
Hmmm, I see this a bit differently, and I will tell you why.

Demand side economy. It means the goods will look for the ISK, not just the other way around.

You show product where there is ISK, you have trade. Product gets lonely by itself, so it hops on the next freighter out of Jita if it hears about ISK someplace else. Fellow flying that freighter makes shiny profit for giving that product passage.

Fellow at the end of the event meets product, and hands over ISK.

Now, maybe fellow is not lookin for more than a rare purchase, so he loads up his ISK, maybe smuggling style like Grumpy spoke about, maybe not. He heads over to where he thinks his product is priced to his liking, and buys it.

We just know a clone jump by itself won't be enough.

You assume hostility. I actually post these replies in good humor, often by pointing out the perspective they view it with is not the one used by the idea.

Try not to take things so personally, you will lead a happier life.

And as to your point about realism, I am not pushing for that either. Realism would be hackers breaking into the ISK networks, not being stopped, and doing bad things from there. Remember that every resource used by those protecting our finances is also available to those who would steal from it.

There are glossed over details that can be exposed just a little here, and make things more fun for everyone.
I accept that not everyone can see this the same way.

But if all the isk is already in Jita, who would be buying anything anywhere else? It's plenty of money for freighter and JF pilots, sure, but it ***** all over absolutely every other player in the game.

I can never quite work out whether or not Nikk is a very dedicated troll, or just a very imaginative person who doesn't think things through.

Given the sheer detail and persistence shown in his posts, I'm inclined to lean toward the latter.

Now, that is a really good question.

The ISK is not all in Jita. Granted, a lot of trade happens there. But not all the ISK comes from selling goods in Jita.

Some comes from mining, doing missions, incursions, Planetary Interaction, and all the ratting.
(I left out PvP, as it is a diminishing sum process relating to this)

Most of this is not done in 'The Forge' itself.

So, how is the Jita system such a trade hub? Convenience. With no other factors to cause greater diffusion to other markets, more items are present in Jita.

Now, what if other factors caused convenience to be affected by ISK presence? We would soon learn what region produced the most ISK, as it would find convoys of freighters landing on a station to take advantage of the local market.
(Many use market alts, or even websites to choose locations to buy goods. If your needs are met at a good price in your own region, who would risk traveling for no benefit?)
And the guys selling might put their price points a little above Jita. The farther Jita was, the more willing people would be willing to pay this additional broker's fee.
(Lost time traveling in game makes that slight difference in price feel trivial, and that transaction looks real pretty and shiny then)

TL;DR If the best deal is not in Jita, counting your own expenses for time and travel, you pick the place that has the best deal instead. Your local region will always have the advantage of minimal time and travel needed.

So you're like that guy in heroes that sticks his hand in that cheerleader's head?