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Paving the way to the next nerf: hulks

Author
Dave stark
#201 - 2012-07-04 07:51:57 UTC
Corvus Borealis wrote:
Damn, how hard it is to get it?

Hulk is the ship that has been pimped for mining yield.

Skiff is the ship that has been pimped for tanking.

Mackinaw is the ship that has been pimped for ice extraction.

So you have three tools, for three different situations


i forsee ice and mercoxit bonuses vanishing.

it would be thoroughly stupid on ccp's part to give us all these nice options of more yield, more tank, more cargo and then say you can ONLY effectively mine ice/mercox in a specific ship.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#202 - 2012-07-04 09:00:16 UTC
Breezly Brewin wrote:
This change is good we will have different ships for different situations.


That is true on the surface, but it boils down to 1 option, which change depending on weather or not you mine alone.

Group mining with support: Covetor/Hulk.
Alone: Procurer/Skiff.

I don't think a lot of players are going to use the retriever for hi-sec mining, jet can sized ore hold may look good on paper, but at the expense of mining output and ehp it just don't seem worth it. With the procurer you still need to anchor cans, but you get battleship ehp and best mining output, and with no station jumps the most mining time. The Retriever/Mackinaw is probably going to be good for afk mining, maybe CCP plans to reward the people who don't play the game with a specialized ship.

While the Hulk is currently the only choice, we really gain nothing when it comes to ship options. The game is just being redesigned so miner no longer have the option to do maximum mining without a support/protection, which may or may not be designed to move more industry to low/null sec.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2012-07-04 14:32:33 UTC
dexington wrote:
Breezly Brewin wrote:
This change is good we will have different ships for different situations.


That is true on the surface, but it boils down to 1 option, which change depending on weather or not you mine alone.

Group mining with support: Covetor/Hulk.
Alone: Procurer/Skiff.

I don't think a lot of players are going to use the retriever for hi-sec mining, jet can sized ore hold may look good on paper, but at the expense of mining output and ehp it just don't seem worth it.
.


Hmmm how does it feel to be wrong? I am pretty excited about using the new retriever/skiff. When I am mining I am usually doing something much more fun on another screen, like pew pew. I have sound on so I don't need a super tank, I hear someone locking me and I warp to station (since I am already aligned out). The large ore bay is appealing to me, cause when I am schoolin fools in PvP I can't be bothered running back and forth between station every 2 min.
Kelhund
State War Academy
Caldari State
#204 - 2012-07-04 14:51:09 UTC
Aye, large ore bay plus a lowslot or two on the skiff, and that'll be the only thing you need if you're mining in a wh alone and unafraid :D
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#205 - 2012-07-04 15:00:37 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
yeah buffin the procurer and giving the retriever 27500 m3 of ore bay + a nearly bs tank will make everybody happy LoL

Unfortunately serious miners fly in hulks and they will get no bonuses but an 8k-ish ore bay (cool 1 more cycle afk for me). All the highsec gankers will have to gank hulks (and covetors eventually) so....... where is the buff please? Spending 2 weeks to fly a retriever Vs spending 3 months to mine decently in a hulk (not to mention orca boosting) with no benefit but an 8k-ish ore hold? Everything done under the the golden rule that "an hulk mine too much"

sure, that's a buff for bot users and afk miners.

edit: anyway you're right, I modified the title, "only" hulks will get nerf'd, noob mining barges will be shiny ;)


Show me on your Hulk where the Nerf-Bat touched you.

Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#206 - 2012-07-04 22:01:59 UTC
There does seem to be a lot of people that assume everyone that uses a Retriever will be an afk miner. Many of these people also tend to have multiple accounts (for their orca alt, etc).
I myself do have an Orca alt for when I mine, but my buddy does not, he only has 1 account, and enjoys mining sometimes when were not online together. The Retriever is perfect for him (well, we're assuming, since we havent seen hard stats yet), as where we mine is a little out of the way, but can flippers do occasionally make their way through. He can mine, listen to Eve Radio, talk with his wife, and relax, without having to run back to base every few minutes (unless local pops).

I do hope they give the Hulk a little more EHP (bit too easy to gank atm, in anything lower than .8 for high sec.), or the price dramatically lowers for them. Other than that, I am pretty excited about the changes to the rest of the miners. Love seeing options! ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#207 - 2012-07-05 07:28:28 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Hmmm how does it feel to be wrong? I am pretty excited about using the new retriever/skiff. When I am mining I am usually doing something much more fun on another screen, like pew pew. I have sound on so I don't need a super tank, I hear someone locking me and I warp to station (since I am already aligned out). The large ore bay is appealing to me, cause when I am schoolin fools in PvP I can't be bothered running back and forth between station every 2 min.


As i said the Retriever/Skiff is designed for afk mining, which i don't mind people doing, i just find it strange ccp decides to reward this style of play.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Jelizza Arlath
Darkfall Helix
#208 - 2012-07-05 07:29:32 UTC
If they are going to have different stats so that you select one based on your needs then I don't see how you can keep the ice or gas mining bonuses.

Point in case;

I want to mine ore, but I want the optimal EHP. So I'd pick the Skiff and fly off to go mine some ore... oh wait... Skiff has bonus to Gas mining? Guess going for the biggest EHP if I wanted to mine ore was a bad idea.

Oh well, lets try a Mackinaw then. It's not as much EHP as the SKiff, but at least it should still have decent EHP and a solid cargobay... oh wait... Mackinaw has bonus to Ice mining? Guess going for the decently EHP ship with good cargo was a bad idea.

Seems I'll have to do what I always did... grab a Hulk if I want to go mine regular ore, and thus be forced to use the minimum EHP ship for that.

Given the above example it seems quite pointless if they are going to give us the option to select a ship based on EHP, mining yield and cargo, and then still keep them "locked" in a specific role due to ship bonuses. Basically that means the ice miners always fly the biggest cargohold ship due to the ice bonus and not because they prefer more EHP or increased cargo, but because of the bonus to ice mining.

If this is going to make sense they all need similar bonuses and the variations need to be in the EHP, cargo and yield... not the ice, gas or ore specific bonus they have today.
Jelizza Arlath
Darkfall Helix
#209 - 2012-07-05 08:12:54 UTC
dexington wrote:
As i said the Retriever/Skiff is designed for afk mining, which i don't mind people doing, i just find it strange ccp decides to reward this style of play.


I understand your point about the large cargospace being more ideal for AFK-miners. However, there are alot more people playing the game than just AFK'ers.

There are several people playing the game that do not have alts or 2nd accounts. I have RL friends who play the game but don't want to keep two accounts running, but they enjoy logging into the game and go mining in belts to gather some ore/minerals to either go sell, or to give to me so I can build things they require, such as mining crystals or ammunition.

Having a mining barge with a bigger cargo hold enables them to stay in the belts and mine without being punished for supplying the EVE market with the raw materials that keep everything going. Noone, and I mean NOONE enjoyes warping back and forth to a station every 5 minutes because the cargohold is full.

That is the very reason why people start second accounts in the first place... to avoid the jetcan mining and the constant warping.

And yes, the obvious argument is, get a friend to haul for you... but lets be realistic. Would you want to split your profits in half by having someone sit and stare at the jetcan? And would you be the one sitting there staring at the jetcan for half profits on an ore/mineral sale if you could rather be out there doing missions or mining yourself?

Besides, if you really want to afk mine you can just stick a mining laser on a transport ship, survey the largest rock and fire it up. That's what alot of the afk miners do anyways. Most other miners are actively moving ore onto their hauler alts, or they have exhumers with large holds and just fill those up then warp to stations.

Even though a miner might look AFK to you as you swing by a belt in your combat fitted ship that doesn't mean they are AFK. They are filling up their cans, or their 10-13.000m3 cargoholds... giving the exhumers larger cargoholds just means a convenience for those that actually take the time to train up exhumers and take the time flying to belts to mine.

I could just as easily turn it around and say that sentry drones are designed for AFK mission running. Dual-LAR2 Dominix with T2 sentries is just as AFK (perhaps even more since you don't have to switch targets like a miner has to when the rocks break) as anyone doing mining in an exhumer with a large cargohold. Sentry drones might not be as efficient as actively shooting stuff, but efficiency is hardly then goal when AFK'ing anything (hence why we have Badgers with Mining lasers on them).
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#210 - 2012-07-05 10:20:54 UTC
I may have exaggerated the uselessness of the Retriever/Mackinaw. I have done a lot of ore hauling in a Badger MK II, with expanded cargohold and cargohold optimization rigs, and i guess the ore hold means you can skip that part.

All in all the new designs are probably okay, they give each of the ships their own little niche. I don't think it's going to result in a lot of changes in-game, but i guess it may make life a little easier for new miners.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Dave stark
#211 - 2012-07-05 12:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
dexington wrote:
Breezly Brewin wrote:
This change is good we will have different ships for different situations.


That is true on the surface, but it boils down to 1 option, which change depending on weather or not you mine alone.

Group mining with support: Covetor/Hulk.
Alone: Procurer/Skiff.

I don't think a lot of players are going to use the retriever for hi-sec mining, jet can sized ore hold may look good on paper, but at the expense of mining output and ehp it just don't seem worth it. With the procurer you still need to anchor cans, but you get battleship ehp and best mining output, and with no station jumps the most mining time. The Retriever/Mackinaw is probably going to be good for afk mining, maybe CCP plans to reward the people who don't play the game with a specialized ship.

While the Hulk is currently the only choice, we really gain nothing when it comes to ship options. The game is just being redesigned so miner no longer have the option to do maximum mining without a support/protection, which may or may not be designed to move more industry to low/null sec.


glad i'm not the only person that thinks the mack/ret is going to be borderline useless.

the mack won't even be good at afk mining, the roids will pop[in high sec] before the ore bay is full.

dexington wrote:
I may have exaggerated the uselessness of the Retriever/Mackinaw. I have done a lot of ore hauling in a Badger MK II, with expanded cargohold and cargohold optimization rigs, and i guess the ore hold means you can skip that part.

All in all the new designs are probably okay, they give each of the ships their own little niche. I don't think it's going to result in a lot of changes in-game, but i guess it may make life a little easier for new miners.


right now a hulk can easily fill 3 jet cans in an hour. swapping to an industrial to haul will cost you about 1 cycle an hour if you're solo mining, which is 1/20 cycles, so if the gap in yield is over 5% then the hulk will outmine the mackinaw assuming you insist on hauling every hour (which is what i do).
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#212 - 2012-07-05 20:46:55 UTC
There is just a down side to the 8k ore bay on the hulk. When you use the hulk for group mining i can pull in over 8 k in 2 cycles of all 3 lasers. I just think that it should be a little bigger so that you don't have to keep moving ore out every time your lasers cycle. Maybe 10km3, that would allow you to get 2 cycles in maybe start a 3rd and and move to within the orca if you are out of range.
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#213 - 2012-07-06 03:20:14 UTC
Or at least 2 cycles of all 3 lasers with maxed skills maybe.
Threshner
#214 - 2012-07-06 15:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Threshner
tsuggerpuppe wrote:
Honestly! Who of you, who can fly a Hulk will change to another ship now, doesn't matter if 0.0 or hi-sec? Nobody!

The only one who benefit from this are new players, skilling for the mining profession. Means more minerals on the market, decreasing prices. That's it!

It's a nerf!

PS: mining in a Wormhole with Mackinaw and only 2 Strip miners, but just for more cargohold is not reasonable! You loose 33% of your yield. You must have been confronted with jetcan-destroyers every 30 minutes or so?

Same for botters - They don't need that extra Cargohold.

Only newbies benefit from the changes. anything else I wrote at the beginning of this post.



I will change in a heartbeat! If i am sitting at my computer working on homework why not just afk in a ship that costs 20 million total in mods and such with 27000 cargo hold over a hulk? I will be working on important stuff while my retriever fills up in ore. Who cares if i lose 20 million i can make that back in a hurry running one or two level 4's

The Hulk is pointless in my eyes except for 0.0 mining. I can't stand the fact a destroyer can destroy something costing 1000% more in a simple 6 or 7 seconds. A cargo ship will be what i use in the future no reason to use a hulk as a SOLO miner in HS.
Dave stark
#215 - 2012-07-06 21:17:31 UTC
Threshner wrote:
tsuggerpuppe wrote:
Honestly! Who of you, who can fly a Hulk will change to another ship now, doesn't matter if 0.0 or hi-sec? Nobody!

The only one who benefit from this are new players, skilling for the mining profession. Means more minerals on the market, decreasing prices. That's it!

It's a nerf!

PS: mining in a Wormhole with Mackinaw and only 2 Strip miners, but just for more cargohold is not reasonable! You loose 33% of your yield. You must have been confronted with jetcan-destroyers every 30 minutes or so?

Same for botters - They don't need that extra Cargohold.

Only newbies benefit from the changes. anything else I wrote at the beginning of this post.



I will change in a heartbeat! If i am sitting at my computer working on homework why not just afk in a ship that costs 20 million total in mods and such with 27000 cargo hold over a hulk? I will be working on important stuff while my retriever fills up in ore. Who cares if i lose 20 million i can make that back in a hurry running one or two level 4's

The Hulk is pointless in my eyes except for 0.0 mining. I can't stand the fact a destroyer can destroy something costing 1000% more in a simple 6 or 7 seconds. A cargo ship will be what i use in the future no reason to use a hulk as a SOLO miner in HS.


except asteroids in high sec will pop in like 2 cycles which is the same as a hulk's cargo capacity, so you may as well just use the hulk because when you have to swap asteroids you can take the extra 4 seconds and empty your cargo. so you won't gain any benefit from switching. people keep seeming to forget that asteroids with ore in them aren't like ice mining where you can sit shooting the same blob for hours on end...

i agree on the hulk point though, if goons keep running permageddon it just makes sense to use a skiff in high sec. rather lose a bit of yield than a hulk.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#216 - 2012-07-07 06:21:28 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Threshner wrote:
tsuggerpuppe wrote:
Honestly! Who of you, who can fly a Hulk will change to another ship now, doesn't matter if 0.0 or hi-sec? Nobody!

The only one who benefit from this are new players, skilling for the mining profession. Means more minerals on the market, decreasing prices. That's it!

It's a nerf!

PS: mining in a Wormhole with Mackinaw and only 2 Strip miners, but just for more cargohold is not reasonable! You loose 33% of your yield. You must have been confronted with jetcan-destroyers every 30 minutes or so?

Same for botters - They don't need that extra Cargohold.

Only newbies benefit from the changes. anything else I wrote at the beginning of this post.



I will change in a heartbeat! If i am sitting at my computer working on homework why not just afk in a ship that costs 20 million total in mods and such with 27000 cargo hold over a hulk? I will be working on important stuff while my retriever fills up in ore. Who cares if i lose 20 million i can make that back in a hurry running one or two level 4's

The Hulk is pointless in my eyes except for 0.0 mining. I can't stand the fact a destroyer can destroy something costing 1000% more in a simple 6 or 7 seconds. A cargo ship will be what i use in the future no reason to use a hulk as a SOLO miner in HS.


except asteroids in high sec will pop in like 2 cycles which is the same as a hulk's cargo capacity, so you may as well just use the hulk because when you have to swap asteroids you can take the extra 4 seconds and empty your cargo. so you won't gain any benefit from switching. people keep seeming to forget that asteroids with ore in them aren't like ice mining where you can sit shooting the same blob for hours on end...

i agree on the hulk point though, if goons keep running permageddon it just makes sense to use a skiff in high sec. rather lose a bit of yield than a hulk.



You may want to mine in a different place. I mine often in a .6 system, and I get upwards of 6-8 cycles out of many rocks, which when I don't have my alt up (wife on other computer) or am doing work on other comp, i can solo with a Retriever. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Dave stark
#217 - 2012-07-07 06:45:07 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Threshner wrote:
tsuggerpuppe wrote:
Honestly! Who of you, who can fly a Hulk will change to another ship now, doesn't matter if 0.0 or hi-sec? Nobody!

The only one who benefit from this are new players, skilling for the mining profession. Means more minerals on the market, decreasing prices. That's it!

It's a nerf!

PS: mining in a Wormhole with Mackinaw and only 2 Strip miners, but just for more cargohold is not reasonable! You loose 33% of your yield. You must have been confronted with jetcan-destroyers every 30 minutes or so?

Same for botters - They don't need that extra Cargohold.

Only newbies benefit from the changes. anything else I wrote at the beginning of this post.



I will change in a heartbeat! If i am sitting at my computer working on homework why not just afk in a ship that costs 20 million total in mods and such with 27000 cargo hold over a hulk? I will be working on important stuff while my retriever fills up in ore. Who cares if i lose 20 million i can make that back in a hurry running one or two level 4's

The Hulk is pointless in my eyes except for 0.0 mining. I can't stand the fact a destroyer can destroy something costing 1000% more in a simple 6 or 7 seconds. A cargo ship will be what i use in the future no reason to use a hulk as a SOLO miner in HS.


except asteroids in high sec will pop in like 2 cycles which is the same as a hulk's cargo capacity, so you may as well just use the hulk because when you have to swap asteroids you can take the extra 4 seconds and empty your cargo. so you won't gain any benefit from switching. people keep seeming to forget that asteroids with ore in them aren't like ice mining where you can sit shooting the same blob for hours on end...

i agree on the hulk point though, if goons keep running permageddon it just makes sense to use a skiff in high sec. rather lose a bit of yield than a hulk.



You may want to mine in a different place. I mine often in a .6 system, and I get upwards of 6-8 cycles out of many rocks, which when I don't have my alt up (wife on other computer) or am doing work on other comp, i can solo with a Retriever. ;)


6-8 cycles in a ret vs 6-8 cycles in a hulk is a VERY different quantity of ore...
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#218 - 2012-07-07 15:22:59 UTC
Dave stark wrote:

6-8 cycles in a ret vs 6-8 cycles in a hulk is a VERY different quantity of ore...


I currently only mine in a Hulk (or covetor if 'geddon is going on). The Retriever is planned for when solo, depending on what its buffs are.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Threshner
#219 - 2012-07-08 03:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Threshner
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

6-8 cycles in a ret vs 6-8 cycles in a hulk is a VERY different quantity of ore...


I currently only mine in a Hulk (or covetor if 'geddon is going on). The Retriever is planned for when solo, depending on what its buffs are.


true they get a much different amount of ore but your forgetting my key points of the cargo bay and the fact that i won't have to move ore into a jet can and worry about it getting stolen out of my can. Much less ore yes but im also using a ship much less expensive hull.

For me the cargo is a very nice bonus for my alt and actually makes mining appealing instead of having to look over your shoulder constantly thinking some small ship will come kill you in 8 seconds with no trouble to them at all.

but hey we all are allowed our opinions right?
LTC Vuvovich
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#220 - 2012-07-10 12:17:27 UTC
Hi peeps

I saw the cross-leveling intentions same as everyone else I think... far as I am concerned, unless you're a noob the intended changes shouldn't really matter to you much. I mine in a Hulk period... does not really matter what CCP intends to do with the lesser barges.

Also another thing, if you regularly mine in a 'fleet' that has Orca bonuses... cargo hold capacities are a mute point entirely as all mined material is alternately transferred to the Orca's Corp. Hangar bays anyway whether your Hulk is rigged for cargo capacity or not.

So unless you personally are affected, why would it even matter. Oh wait... taking the old 'gray-matter' out for a stroll... sorry my bad, as you were.