Intergalactic Summit

It's a sad day when you're forced to resort to outright lies to support claims that didn't have any truth in them to begin with. But you've always been an insignificant and cowardly little clown, Kim, so no matter.

Excuse me in advance if I say this that way, but for me it is exactly about delusions. Your history is not on Caldari Prime. What you will find on Caldari Prime is a different planet. Very gallente-ish, if you do not mind the clunky choice of words. Your history lies in books, recording, and oral witnesses. Your history lies in your culture, not on a piece of rock.

Anyway, now that the Caldari have taken back their home planet, following your reasoning, have you found your "history" back ? Pardon me for the irony here, but was it hidden under dust, or under a pile of corpses ?



Isn't it what we all do ? Judging people on facts we hold a negative opinion on ? Isn't it what you personnally do when you adress to people that do not fit to your standards of honor and integrity ? Are you telling me that you are not judging them on what they do ? Why can not you accept that I do the exact same thing ?

I do not try to "force" you to see things like I do - some people already do it quite good in the cluster - I merely try to point out what I find damageable and unhealthy. I merely try to have a debate about... controversial things. Apparently you seem not to take it the way I do, but I usually consider a good debate to be a source of enlightement, information, and also a way to change my mind about things, to confront, and most of all, to learn. This is why I am a little disappointed to see that nobody seems to bring me anything else than "emotional concepts" on the matter at hand.

So, if you find my views poisonous, or whatever, then it will be easier to agree to disagree as people say.



I am not asking about your policies on the war, but your mindset regarding the retaking of Caldari Prime.



No. A provist wears the provist flag, think like a provist, and shares the provist mindset. Someone sounding like a provist on a specific point only speaks like a provist on that point. That does not mean that he thinks the same way about it, and even less that he shares everything a provist believes in.



Excuse me, but that is quite hypocritical coming from you. We just have to look at the rest of the IGS to see that you behave in the exact same fashion almost everywhere. I do not find it particularily blameworthy myself.

First off, Ms. Farel, let me use a popular quote.



You may have scholarly knowledge of the Caldari, but you still do not understand. I fear it is difficult for jaijiit.

This piece of rock, as you describe it with unparalleled insight, this little insignificant pale white dot in the cluster is our home, where we, all caldari, trace our origins from. Almost all of our ancestors have lived there, and even today you will find remnants of their work. Ancient shrines, old places of worship, witnesses of our past. You won't find them in the new cities, the gallentean districts. Some have vanished over time, since the wars, burned, but not forgotten. Spirituality, stories, lore - reminiscences to places on this piece of rock.

The concept that I think valiant Ms Farel is missing from her diagnosis is that of kaashivon. It's one of the more difficult of our traits, with no proper correlation to other cultures. Our translator often translates this to "face" or "honour" but it's a poor translation - it loses so much. So, I beg of my compatriots - let's not be too harsh on Ms. Farel. It is important to have good opposition, and in terms of logic, semantics, and reductionism, we could ask no better match.

I won't make a personal statement on the retaking of Caldari Prime - it's not my place. However, Ms Farel, know that because of kaashivon, an attempt on the planet was inevitable. A great number of leaders, warriors and diplomats have 'drank their tea' over even slight failures in reclaiming the homeworld, taking the shame of that failure with them. Without that sacrifice, any of us with hearts would be unable to hold our heads high.

I'm explaining this poorly. Let me be blunt, if you'll pardon me. When a Caldari with heart says that they will do a thing, it will be done - success or death are the only options. This translates upwards as well. When my supervisor, Mr. Atkio Vanamoinen, says that he will do a thing, success or death are the only options for him - and me, as well. How could it be otherwise? He is the head of my family here, and we share the same fates.

This is why an attempt on Caldari Prime was inevitable, though I suspect that the original plan was economic instead of a military one. But, naino sharinaka. Know that Caldari diplomats and warriors have died by their own hands from the dishonour since the day that the Caldari fled, and they rest now with the honoured ancestors.

You may argue that this is a poor trait to have, and perhaps you are right. It is, however, definitive. Remove the face from the Caldari and you will find that you do not have a Caldari at all.

If the Caldari State had never attacked the Federation in order for State Executor Tibus Heth to seize Caldari Prime in an act of political opportunism, I do not think I would be much opposed to efforts of the CPD in all honesty. As I see it, the Provists have all the elements of a democratic mass movement fighting against the tyranny of Megacorporate Executives and for their rights both as workers and as citizens. Despite all the rose-tinted propaganda and public relations exercises by Caldari capsuleers speaking of, "Heiian" or, "Honour" or, "Integrity" those are values that never found themselves expressed by the top Executives and Upper Management of Caldari megacorporations or their dynastic, institutional shareholders such as the Seituoda Family of Wiyrkomi.

It's understandable Caldari capsuleers here on the Summit would want to gloss over the gross economic inequalities, social injustice, and exploitation of the common Caldari worker by State Megacorporations that gave rise to the Provist Movement. A Caldari State where the employee became economically indentured to their Megacorporation by only being paid in corporate scrip, forced to buy products that only their Megacorporate employers wished through the practices of currency manipulation, subsidisation, tariffs, and protectionism, essentially sinking their wages back into their Megacorporation and its subsidiaries. This while their management and executives reaped the profits of being able to operate in the interstellar free-market backed by CONCORD and the SCC on the backs of employees they may as well not have paid at all. Did those profits translate to anything substantial to the lives of the common Caldari worker, or were they told to remain silent, to follow tradition, and to allow their modern Raata Lords in the Executive Boards take their dues as they paid out dividends to the descendents of those fortunate enough to have had their ancestors invest in Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, Hyasyoda, Ishukone, CBD or Sukuuvestaa?

That, when being told, "What it means to be Caldari" translated to, "What it means to be exploited as a worker in service to what as well may be modern feudal overlords," Became intolerable enough that they were given no recourse but to protest their ill-treatment then how swiftly their voices were silenced by the corporate security apparatus. One needs only remember the Brothers of Freedom, or indeed even the events surrounding Tibus Heth on Piak, for one to see how State Megacorporations responded to anyone who dared forget, "What it means to be Caldari". Human rights and personal liberty mean nothing in a Caldari State that is designed solely to promote corporate interests. Indeed, what constitution or bill of rights protects the Caldari citizen against their employers? What court is there in the State that does not dispense justice in the interests of a Megacorporation? Where employees lives and dignity were held in such contempt that it was a legitimate act to put down dissent through force and violence.

What is interesting and almost amusing to see from some Caldari capsuleers however is this almost extreme fixation on defining, "What it means to be Caldari." Without seeming to realize, of course, that the same line has been used ever since the Megacorporations and their shareholders used it as an appeal to nationalism and self-determination in order to protect their colonies in what is today the State and it appears to be used in much the same fashion today in order to legitimize Megacorporate oppression - as if speaking out against the Megacorporations is "Un-Caldari". One could also submit that Caldari capsuleers may have been funded, in part, by a Megacorporation and it should come as no surprise that almost all the disagreements with the CPD on their part appear to be purely its intrusion on Megacorporate sovereignty, particularly in area of workers rights.

Even that would be a tenuous assertion since it seems even most Caldari are uncertain of their own position of the direction of the State if this thread is anything to go by - abandoning logic and rationality in the name of Caldari cultural tragic-romanticism? Certainly, if logic and reason lead to bitter truths about the reality of the modern State and how far it has deviated from all the promises and dreams the Megacorporations sold to their people two hundred years ago.

For if the State truly was the promised land of Caldari values, ideals and traditions where the only distinctions to be made were purely on merit and ability then why was the Provist revolution supported by so many in the State?

Or is it a case for some in the State of better the devil of Megacorporate oppression you already know instead of the devil of Provist oppression you don't know?

Gessenier,

You speak as if you know what you're talking about when you really don't. The "Provist movement" as you keep calling it didn't start as it is now.

The reason political reforms were embraced is because, as I have stated before, the Caldari State had allowed itself to become more of an aristocracy and less of a meritocracy. The principles and values that once were held high in the State were replaced with power and influence based on birth and circumstance instead of individual merit. Tibus Heth did much to rectify this inequity and he deserves credit for doing so, this aspect of his "movement" is largely embraced and welcomed.

However, like all leaders, he has done good and bad throughout his rise to power and leadership. His aggressive policies and anti-Federation sentiments were embraced largely at the outset of the war because of the outrage of the Malkalen Disaster, they have lost popularity since because very few desire an ongoing war and the destruction and turmoil it is causing.

Tibus Heth's rise to power was in the wake of internal political and corporate reform. His actions to restore the State to its meritocratic roots won him a great deal of popularity and popularity can go to tremendous lengths to convince people to overlook things they would normally focus on or disagree with. This is something I imagine most of your Federation politicians understand and exploit quite well, your elections are largely based on popularity after all.

Where you err is to suggest that the principles of honor and integrity, the philosophy of Heiian and other values that we Caldari hold dear were not part of the formation of the State and the Megacorporations. They were, for a very long time, guiding principles and values of Caldari culture and government and it was their disappearance and devaluing from Caldari culture and government that made way for the popular reform and restoration that Tibus Heth spearheaded at the outset of his political uprising.

You do the Caldari an extreme disservice with your own outside viewpoint being spoken as if it were undeniable fact. You do me and others a disservice by claiming we have abandoned logic and reason when we never suggested we have, I said that they are not the most prominent aspects of guidance in some instances. You can seek to live life with honor and personal sacrifice toward your neighbor and possess rationality and logic, the difference is which do you place more emphasis on? I would rather focus on my honor and integrity, being rational from within those perspectives than separate myself from my honor and integrity in a pursuit of detached rationality. This is my choice to make and my actions and words have proven time and again that I am not an irrational creature.

All I am asking is to understand, nothing more.



Of course I see that. You cannot unsee it if you have already read the works of Gorda Hoje. If I had not I would not have even tried to understand, and asked for explanations and clarifications on what makes most of the Caldari here think the way they do. I would just have told them that they were wrong. All I have been waiting until now is to see that crucial thing you speak all about.

And naturally, I am always interested to see what you have to show me. Even if I already know the State, I also know that there is still much to see.



Thank you for the... explanation, though what is your point exactly, other than being condescending ? That you waged a war to witness in flesh things that you were already able to witness by paying a simple visit before the war ? Or that there is a major difference if you control the planet where they lie no matter the cost ?



Thank you for the explanation, and it makes sense. Because Caldari ancestors stated that they will get their homeworld back, their offspring had to do it according to kaashivon. Of course, I know the word but not being a native hampers a little the complete feeling one can get by simply pronouncing it. It was not so hard to explain...

Though of course, you are right to state that this particular trait might be a poor trait to have, or at least in that precise case considering the outcome. You speak about reductionism and this is precisely what you did here, if you allow me, by reducting all the Caldari culture to that trait. It may be a pillar of that culture, true, but it is not all of it, and can evolve. You may be also familiar with the notorious issue of slavery in the Amarr culture. A lot of people argue that it should evolve.

Jenneth-haani,

Explaining what you do not understand and what you do not find consistent, coherent, helps the very person that you are adressing to to understand better why you actually do not understand. Also, it is the goal of any debate to bring different or contrasted points of view. Preaching to the choir generally leads to nowhere.

Also, I am taking note of what caused conflict and will try to deal accordingly in the future.



Some Sansha sympathizers may believe that, but not me. I, too see nothing particularly wrong with being an animal, but I also see nothing particularly wrong with trying to get better, considering that if we want to come back to the animal level, well, every culture, that kaashivon, the Scriptures, social contracts, all human artefacts, would crumble into pieces. As I said above, I believe in the Truth, and I am also sure that the Ashur have another word for a very similar concept. I want to move forward, and not backward for that precise reason.



This is exactly what frightens me the most in your rhetoric.

Concerning the rest of what you said, I could almost get offended by the way you adress me. You seem to consider that I went ad-hominem on you somehow by attacking you, the person, instead of debating your ideals, which I find highly troubling, or that I lacked of respect. Of course, if I did something misplaced of the sort you will have my deepest apologies for that, but I have the feeling that you are actually not being sincere and try to accuse me of things that I never did.

Here I do not absolutely want to sound offensive - and I know it will sound offensive anyway - you are the perfect example of misplaced prided and a person that gets offended by anyone criticizing his beliefs.

Also, you state that I do not listen when I actually do listen. I finally understood what you were all refering to - and I can assure you that I almost hate myself for not having made the link myself until now. I am sorry to say it, but your explanations were no explanations. They were emotionnal nonsense to me, and even if you call them convictions, convictions can very well be twisted or flawed. This is what I have kept answering to you but you, actually, were not able to understand that, blinded by the pride you hold so dear.

I do not seek to discredit, I seek to understand, and I do not see what I could even add to that if you keep wrapping yourself in all this bad faith. If I have been of any lack of respect, please feel free to point me out where and as I said above, I will apologize if it is really the case. You are deluding yourself if you think that a debate is not confrontational. This is the main difference with a discussion. And the difference between a debate and a quarrel is the presence of respect, indeed.

I'm heartened to hear this. I'd like to help, but won't do so publicly. I hope that you won't mind a private message.

What, exactly? That I possess sentimental attachment to the home planet of my ancestors and my people? Sorry that frightens you.



You may choose to take offense, though none was intended. I clarified to you exactly what was frustrating me in much the same way you clarify to others what causes you to be concerned. Perhaps you can understand now why it causes unpleasant responses sometimes. I assure you, I was entirely sincere.



By who's judgment is my pride in identity, history and ancestry misplaced? You will find that my beliefs have been challenged by plenty others and I have not taken offense, I've simply defended them. It is not the challenging of my beliefs that upsets me, it is the consistent and unfounded judgments and attacks on my character and person.



At your request, I have demonstrated to you, in this post alone, where you have been disrespectful and critical. The emphasis is, of course mine. Notice the language you use, "emotional nonsense," "blinded by your pride," "bad faith." These are not terms of respect or attempted understanding, these are terms of criticism and judgment.

Furthermore, I did not say you do not listen, I said you do not appear to be listening. You say I am blinded by pride and that my convictions are nothing more than emotional nonsense. Fine. I accept that as your viewpoint and your understanding. I understood from the beginning what you were asserting regarding the dangers of my "beliefs" but these are merely your perceptions and your judgment and, as I stated from the beginning, I really don't care what you think about them.

I hope we are finally done with this debate.