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Crimes for Unposted Policies?

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Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-06-12 22:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
SO why exactly where you bothering with can flipping to begin with ?

Or where you doing something else ?

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#62 - 2012-06-12 22:56:41 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I understand your point of view and probably those gaming rules are somewhere else like TOS or whatever name it is.
No. They have always been part of the only official example of what constitutes “griefing”. It is not part of the legalese and policies.

That is why, if there is any lack of clarity on this point, they need to announce it.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#63 - 2012-06-12 22:59:21 UTC
The important part is the total lack of any kind of definition of what a Rookie player actually is. Before now people generally assumed that Rookie players were the extremely new players who had just made their characters and were getting to grips with the basics of playing the game or are on trial accounts, but now that's not the case apparently.

More people than 3 day old newbies run the SOE epic arc, people regularly run it in battlecruisers, battleships, T3s and faction cruisers, most of those things take at least a month of skills to train into and can't be trained on trial accounts at all, but somehow these people are considered rookies?

Additionally the SOE epic arc missions that spawn at random locations can spawn in multiple systems across two different regions and over the course of the arc a player will find themselves in various systems in each factions space. Have the GMs really declared all of the systems a player could possibly be in while doing the SOE epic arc non PVP zones?
Alara IonStorm
#64 - 2012-06-12 23:00:14 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

I understand your point of view and probably those gaming rules are somewhere else like TOS or whatever name it is.

TOS covers a wide angle of possibilities and rules stemming from it all come down to a matter of degree's. They could by all accounts make Suicide Ganking illegal under the current set but they do not.

all the reason to tell us if they are cracking the whip.
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

However there's no public announce of changes for this precise fact as they usually do (like can flipping newbs in newbie systems), and at the end of the day it's up to us to trust or not this guy post. Until this supposed change is announced I don't, that simple.

They announced the Rookie System Baiting rule before they enforced it.

I don't believe the guy either but when someone makes an accusation they should respond with the facts.
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

Have you tried to petition about this specific stuff?

Doesn't effect me or my play style.

I want to know if they are changing rules unannounced which is why I am posting here instead of waiting 8 days on a petition and wasting GM time.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-06-12 23:00:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I understand your point of view and probably those gaming rules are somewhere else like TOS or whatever name it is.
No. They have always been part of the only official example of what constitutes “griefing”. It is not part of the legalese and policies.

That is why, if there is any lack of clarity on this point, they need to announce it.



Thing is that atm we have nothing to discuss about than someone's rumour without proving facts. When I'll see or read facts by officials then it will be time I make my self an ulcer.

brb
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2012-06-12 23:16:21 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Thing is that atm we have nothing to discuss about than someone's rumour without proving facts. When I'll see or read facts by officials then it will be time I make my self an ulcer.
Fair enough.

My experience is just that rumour-mongering is how these rules are best brought into the light. The more GM quotes available the better. The entire problem really lies in that policy of theirs of not maintaining an official rules list because they don't want people knowing where the limits are — they believe people will stay farther away from them if the whole area is fuzzy. Straight
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#67 - 2012-06-13 00:28:36 UTC
Solution seems simple enough. Don't go around hunting 2 week old pilots like some sad basement dwelling wanker. Then you won't have to worry about any rule breaking.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#68 - 2012-06-13 00:37:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Sorry, but if what he did got him a ban or a warning, it seems you've been ganked by reality.
No. It means he got wrongfully banned and warned, if that was the reason given.

Can flipping is allowed in all systems, with the exception of the starting systems. The SOE arc does not take place there.

Quote:
Ignorance is no excuse and whatnot.
The problem here is that there is no ignorance, except on the part of the GM in question since (s)he is enforcing a non-existing rule. This is spectacularly stupid since, if they want to warn and ban people just like that, they are allowed to do so according to a completely different rule that wasn't applied here. In fact, there are numerous rules that could have been applied — can baiting/flipping in a newbie system isn't one of them. Instead of using the actual rules, they are referring to one that doesn't exist.

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I like this, CCPs unsaid rules. These losers need to adapt and HTFU.
They would, but that's the entire problem here: there is nothing to adapt to. No rule that covers the described situation exists.


Maybe it's under the griefing portion of the EULA. I'm sure we are only getting half the story here.

John Hancock
0wl
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-06-13 00:41:18 UTC
This post just sounds like butt hurt to me, he's been going around in game for hours now posting the forum link on an alt...I'm placing my bets firmly with the GM knowing exactly what he was doing (It's is job for a start.) and this guy repeatadly griefing the same player over and over again.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-06-13 00:53:33 UTC
GAWD, what is wrong with the so-called 'Vets' in this game?

CCP has made it abundantly clear that their policy is 'New Player Friendly' and have said quite a few times not to mess with the Rookies.


Posted: 2012.04.26 20:13
GM Homonoia wrote:
Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master


Since Rookie chat only lasts for 30 days, that is probably a good indication of what is considered a Rookie. All of the Career Agents offer New Players the SoE level 1 Epic Arc which means a New Player could easily start that Arc on their very first day in Eve.

Bottom line = Do Not Mess With Rookies.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2012-06-13 00:59:32 UTC
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
Maybe it's under the griefing portion of the EULA.
No. The griefing portion of the EULA doesn't define griefing — it just says it's not allowed.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
GAWD, what is wrong with the so-called 'Vets' in this game?
Nothing. They just want to be informed if and when there are any changes in the rules. Why are people so upset about the notion of there being rules that you can follow?
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-06-13 01:03:30 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Enforcing policies that aren't made available is just bad taste


Did you contact the noobs and explain your policies around baiting them? No? Then personally, I reckon it's a bit hypocritical to expect CCP to explain their policies around giving a good slap to pathetic noob-baiting twats.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#73 - 2012-06-13 01:12:08 UTC
The Blood-Stained Stars arc is considered to be part of the New Player Experience (NPE).

I therefore can understand that the GMs might get tired of responding to "interference" petitions and start swinging the ban-hammer.
Olleybear
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#74 - 2012-06-13 01:16:50 UTC
Doing a little bit of battleclinic research on the OP reveals the OP killed a 5 day old character, not just once, but 3 times within a 7 minute time frame. Perhaps this is what the GM was getting on you about?

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#75 - 2012-06-13 01:18:57 UTC
Olleybear wrote:
Doing a little bit of battleclinic research on the OP reveals the OP killed a 5 day old character, not just once, but 3 times within a 7 minute time frame. Perhaps this is what the GM was getting on you about?



Wow, what a complete muppet. Gonna go look for myself Shocked

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#76 - 2012-06-13 01:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tah'ris Khlador
Olleybear wrote:
Doing a little bit of battleclinic research on the OP reveals the OP killed a 5 day old character, not just once, but 3 times within a 7 minute time frame. Perhaps this is what the GM was getting on you about?



Confirming I actively hunt impairors. They provide so much joy to kill. Roll. You don't even know what happened there, but obviously I'm targeting newbs hardcore.

I'm pretty much the devil. Which makes sense, since I'm friends with a guy who is known to have the personality traits of several micro-Hitlers. [EDIT: I've been told he's actually 50 of them].

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Olleybear
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2012-06-13 01:29:35 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Olleybear wrote:
Doing a little bit of battleclinic research on the OP reveals the OP killed a 5 day old character, not just once, but 3 times within a 7 minute time frame. Perhaps this is what the GM was getting on you about?



Confirming I actively hunt impairors. They provide so much joy to kill. Roll. You don't even know what happened there, but obviously I'm targeting newbs hardcore.

I'm pretty much the devil. Which makes sense, since I'm friends with a guy who is known to have the personality traits of several micro-Hitlers. [EDIT: I've been told he's actually 50 of them].


Which is why I asked a question in my last sentence for clarification. In addition to the 'Young Pilot' kills on page after page of battleclinic, your snarky remark does very little to swing anything in your favor.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-06-13 01:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Tippia wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
GAWD, what is wrong with the so-called 'Vets' in this game?
Nothing. They just want to be informed if and when there are any changes in the rules. Why are people so upset about the notion of there being rules that you can follow?

You can try to 'Rationalize Away' the issue all you want. CCP said a couple of years ago their policy was 'NEW PLAYER FRIENDLY' and has repeatedly said the rule is 'DON'T MESS WITH ROOKIES'. Can't get any more specific than that..

Hopefully CCP is enforcing that Policy by swinging the Ban-Hammer fast and hard. Definitely need to set an example for all since this is a lesson that obviously needs to be taught.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2012-06-13 01:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tau Cabalander wrote:
The Blood-Stained Stars arc is considered to be part of the New Player Experience (NPE).

I therefore can understand that the GMs might get tired of responding to "interference" petitions and start swinging the ban-hammer.
…in which case they need to make this rules-change clear and actually reference which rule they're enforcing when swinging that hammer.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
You can try to 'Rationalize Away' the issue all you want.
Yes, asking them to communicate rules changes is pretty rational. Why are you so upset that people are asking for it?
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#80 - 2012-06-13 01:34:26 UTC
So what people are conveniently skipping over here is the problem that this supposed ruling makes all of the SOE epic arc systems off limits for any kind of can flipping, ninja-ing, and baiting. This means that the following systems have been added to the 'no touch zone' (even against non-noobs, if we follow the way the rookie systems are handled):

- Arnon
- Emsar
- Manarq
- Tar
- Larvier
- Ashokon
- Attyn
- Avyuh
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Harerget

And a few others I can't recall off the top of my head. The point of the OP wasn't to question whether or not shooting someone who just started the game is lame (which it is), but the fact that the GMs are arbitrarily enforcing a very clear rule in places it doesn't belong. The GMs need to make clear their expansion of systems, or actually train their GMs.

If they do plan expanding this protection to all epic arc systems, they need to think twice about how much protection this will offer to the veteran players who run the arcs (and who are, incidentally, the majority of the people who actually run the soe epic arc).