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Crimes for Unposted Policies?

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Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-06-12 20:57:12 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
I just want clarification on current rules that are being enforced that aren't posted anywhere as being rules.


They haven't been made clear to you now? If you got a ban or a warning, you know what you're doing is against the rules.

Simple enough I'd think.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-06-12 21:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Malphilos wrote:
If you got a ban or a warning, you know what you're doing is against the rules.


"You broke a rule that we've never actually posted anywhere. Here's a two week ban."

People pay for this game. Any rules concerning the game should actually be posted somewhere rather than GMs arbitrarily extending the definition of "rookie system" to "all of hisec." Obviously, not every single variation of every rule can be explicit, but something as tangential as "you may not can bait anywhere in hisec" is pretty different from "you may not can bait in rookie systems." Of course, I won't believe the OP until there's actually some confirmation that this is going on as this sounds like hearsay.

Sheltering new players only keeps them around until they're ~shocked~ that their officer-fit Tengu was suicide ganked on a gate.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2012-06-12 21:11:02 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
They haven't been made clear to you now? If you got a ban or a warning, you know what you're doing is against the rules.
…except that he doesn't know what he was doing that was against the rules because the things he was doing are quite explicitly not against the rules.

Can flipping is prohibited in the newbie systems. The SOE epic arc does not take place in the newbie systems.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#24 - 2012-06-12 21:13:08 UTC
All I'm saying is that I think it's reasonable for players to ask for a re-hash of the "official" unofficial official not-written-in-stone rules GM's are following du jour.

If we don't have a CCP tag, we cannot know about shifts in policy.

Unless we ask.

This thread should stay up and it deserves legitimate attention.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Marcus Harikari
#25 - 2012-06-12 21:23:41 UTC
bump
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-06-12 21:30:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
They haven't been made clear to you now? If you got a ban or a warning, you know what you're doing is against the rules.
…except that he doesn't know what he was doing that was against the rules because the things he was doing are quite explicitly not against the rules.



Explicitly not against the rules...

Sorry, but if what he did got him a ban or a warning, it seems you've been ganked by reality. Ignorance is no excuse and whatnot.

But isn't this just the classic EVE situation? You have imperfect knowledge... is that a juicy noob, or are they actually protected by CCPs desire not to have their new customers driven off by a$$hats? Will you pull the trigger?

Can't you just feel the excitement?
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#27 - 2012-06-12 21:31:10 UTC
Oh nose!!! I can't grief 4 day old noobs anymore!!!!

More cheese with your whine please....

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#28 - 2012-06-12 21:31:11 UTC
I don't see any rule breaking here.


Especially because I just ran the SoE arc a few months back to fix my minnie status, and I've been playing for almost 2 years.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-06-12 21:35:26 UTC
GM's have mentioned in the past that they don't want to create a list of hard set rules in matters such as this as they know that they can't keep up with the people that will figure out the loop holes and then come crying "but I was not breaking the rules, waaaaa"

Bottom line is, do not **** with the newbies. Get a life and go fight someone else that is not a 2 day old Eve noob.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-06-12 21:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
I like this, CCPs unspoken rules. What were the words again........OH, Adapt and HTFU.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#31 - 2012-06-12 21:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Malphilos wrote:
Sorry, but if what he did got him a ban or a warning, it seems you've been ganked by reality.
No. It means he got wrongfully banned and warned, if that was the reason given.

Can flipping is allowed in all systems, with the exception of the starting systems. The SOE arc does not take place there.

Quote:
Ignorance is no excuse and whatnot.
The problem here is that there is no ignorance, except on the part of the GM in question since (s)he is enforcing a non-existing rule. This is spectacularly stupid since, if they want to warn and ban people just like that, they are allowed to do so according to a completely different rule that wasn't applied here. In fact, there are numerous rules that could have been applied — can baiting/flipping in a newbie system isn't one of them. Instead of using the actual rules, they are referring to one that doesn't exist.

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I like this, CCPs unsaid rules. These losers need to adapt and HTFU.
They would, but that's the entire problem here: there is nothing to adapt to. No rule that covers the described situation exists.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-06-12 21:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Darth Gustav wrote:
All I'm saying is that I think it's reasonable for players to ask for a re-hash of the "official" unofficial official not-written-in-stone rules GM's are following du jour.

If we don't have a CCP tag, we cannot know about shifts in policy.

Unless we ask.

This thread should stay up and it deserves legitimate attention.




Shoot first ask questions latter might bring consequences at some point, better think before than latter. But I do agree there's some problem with rules, mostly because those are completely not existing or fail/flawed ones than the other way around.
Yep there's one that seems clear now, don't mess with noobs in noob systems, yey !! finally !!

EDit: Also Eve is an harsh world for EVERYONE, if you mess and get a ban/whatever suck it up and deal with it, it's the spirit of Eve.

brb
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2012-06-12 21:48:43 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Shoot first ask questions latter might bring consequences at some point
The problem here is that they asked first, and the answer has been known for many many years, so the shot came much later.

Quote:
Yep there's one that seems clear now, don't mess with noobs in noob systems, yey !! finally !!
…except that this wasn't in a newbie system. So that rule doesn't apply.
Ayn Randy
Home For Pugs
#34 - 2012-06-12 21:51:26 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
How about this... Don't harass the noobs doing the sister's of eve epic, grow a set, and fight people who can and will fight back?


Harassing the newbs who are trying to learn the basics of the game is really low.

Wow what an ass...
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-06-12 21:51:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Shoot first ask questions latter might bring consequences at some point
The problem here is that they asked first, and the answer has been known for many many years, so the shot came much later.

Quote:
Yep there's one that seems clear now, don't mess with noobs in noob systems, yey !! finally !!
…except that this wasn't in a newbie system. So that rule doesn't apply.



Well that good crowd of harsh muscle (hem) brained (hehem) uber skilled (hehehehem) players know that Eve is an harsh world, well it's time for them to taste their own medicine. I don't see any problem about this.

brb
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2012-06-12 21:52:55 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I don't see any problem about this.
You don't see a problem with people being banned for breaking rules that don't exist.

Are you really sure about that?
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-06-12 21:57:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I don't see any problem about this.
You don't see a problem with people being banned for breaking rules that don't exist.

Are you really sure about that?



I'm quite sure GM's do their job and also in between what a random dude write in this epic forum and the real reason why some GM banned said guy, I pick the GM side.

brb
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#38 - 2012-06-12 22:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm quite sure GM's do their job
…enforcing rules that don't exist?
Are you really sure you think that their job?

Quote:
in between what a random dude write in this epic forum and the real reason why some GM banned said guy, I pick the GM side.
That's a slightly different problem: you don't have the GM side.
You have this guy's side, and if he was indeed warned and banned for the reason he says he is, then the GMs are in the wrong because the rule in question doesn't exist.

Again, it's very simple: if they want to ban him for reversing his Muninn into a station, or because they don't like the colour of his nose hair, they can do so, and there is a specific rule they can point to for doing this. Banning someone and pointing to a non-existing rule is a very bad thing for them to do…
Alara IonStorm
#39 - 2012-06-12 22:01:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
in between what a random dude write in this epic forum and the real reason why some GM banned said guy, I pick the GM side.

How did that work out for T20?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#40 - 2012-06-12 22:04:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm quite sure GM's do their job
…enforcing rules that don't exist?
Are you really sure you think that their job?

Quote:
in between what a random dude write in this epic forum and the real reason why some GM banned said guy, I pick the GM side.
That's a slightly different problem: you don't have the GM side.
You have this guy's side, and if he was indeed warned and banned for the reason he says he is, then the GMs are in the wrong because the rule in question doesn't exist.

While logically I agree with Tippia, the unfortunate truth is we will never have the GM's side as it pertains to this case.

CCP do not discuss disciplinary actions due to their privacy policy.

Despite the fact that they will not do this, they also want to keep a list of rules players don't officially know about.

This deserves attention, because trying to have it both ways is a difficult proposition for CCP indeed.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom