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Crimes for Unposted Policies?

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Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#221 - 2012-06-13 12:30:34 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Ta da!!

Next illiterate nincompoop please!


Why I'm still bothering to respond to you is beyond me, but here goes.

GM Homonoia wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific. If you can flip a veteran in a rookie system we will (most likely) not take action against you. But if a rookie takes the bait you better not open fire.


I definitely understand the not-shooting at rookies if they take a flipped can, I was more concerned with the more common use-case of can-flipping, which is simply stealing to gain aggro against the owning player/corporation.

As long as it's still legal to steal from non-rookies and kill them (via flipping, stealing, ganking, ninjaing, war, or any other means) in these systems, then this is a perfectly reasonable rule. If these 25 systems are 100% safe zones for all players, then that's completely out of line and goes against the whole "no-where is safe" thing.


See the post made by GM Spiral above. GM discretion is applied here and we generally do not protect veteran players, but if a rookie gets caught in the crossfire we act accordingly.


Source

This is why I want it clearly stated on the wiki page, as the GM answers, regarding non-rookies, are literally changing every-other post.


I see where you having issues here. As was brought up earlier by Tippia, the terms can-flipping and can baiting seem to be being used interchangeably, which clearly they are not. The rules themselves are not "changing every other post" it's just that people need to be a bit clearer about which can related activity is being discussed. Also you are correct in stating that the wiki page needs an update.

I should also point out that any antagonism I levelled at you is entirely down to the way in which you responded to my post earlier, where I was actually agreeing with you and clarifying something you seemed to be struggling with.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#222 - 2012-06-13 12:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
DeBingJos wrote:


They steal from a can labeled 'Free stuff'. Then they become red to and die. Stuff like this can be explained in the tutorials.


Here is a primary example of something that just shouldn't be done.
Why, cause the odds of getting a rookie are 500 times greater then getting an experienced player.
This is literally a case of someone playing on another players ignorance of the game mechanics.
Why don't you just label them as 10v1 gank if you steal from this can.

If people can't understand that, they to just need to leave the game (or ban them I don't care), we don't need a 100 page book of rules created because a tiny group of people just can't grasp the concept.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#223 - 2012-06-13 12:35:48 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities

1. Create new toon
2. Set course to Hek
3. Probe a mission runner
4. Steal loot
5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you<
6. Collect tears.

I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules.


A simple check by a Dev or GM to find any other characters on the same account, or any accounts linked to the same email address or customer information would cover most of those eventualities. There are ways around that but it would require a fair amount of effort, not something your ordinary rookie ganker is capable of.

Anyone going so far as to set up another account under false credentials, using a separate email address and possibly even a different IP address just to grief other players using this mechanic is not going to be swayed by the rules, no matter HOW harsh they are, because clearly they would be mentally ill.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2012-06-13 12:39:33 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities

1. Create new toon
2. Set course to Hek
3. Probe a mission runner
4. Steal loot
5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you<
6. Collect tears.

I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules.


A simple check by a Dev or GM to find any other characters on the same account, or any accounts linked to the same email address or customer information would cover most of those eventualities. There are ways around that but it would require a fair amount of effort, not something your ordinary rookie ganker is capable of.

Anyone going so far as to set up another account under false credentials, using a separate email address and possibly even a different IP address just to grief other players using this mechanic is not going to be swayed by the rules, no matter HOW harsh they are, because clearly they would be mentally ill.


The problem with all these extra rules is that they create a slippery slope. What is next?

New players will not be griefed in the Epic arc, but when they finish it it is ok to grief them? Where do you draw the line?

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#225 - 2012-06-13 12:40:29 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities

1. Create new toon
2. Set course to Hek
3. Probe a mission runner
4. Steal loot
5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you<
6. Collect tears.

I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules.


A simple check by a Dev or GM to find any other characters on the same account, or any accounts linked to the same email address or customer information would cover most of those eventualities. There are ways around that but it would require a fair amount of effort, not something your ordinary rookie ganker is capable of.

Anyone going so far as to set up another account under false credentials, using a separate email address and possibly even a different IP address just to grief other players using this mechanic is not going to be swayed by the rules, no matter HOW harsh they are, because clearly they would be mentally ill.


The problem with all these extra rules is that they create a slippery slope. What is next?

New players will not be griefed in the Epic arc, but when they finish it it is ok to grief them? Where do you draw the line?


Don't push the line and we will not have to draw it.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Gatosai
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
#226 - 2012-06-13 12:44:08 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities

1. Create new toon
2. Set course to Hek
3. Probe a mission runner
4. Steal loot
5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you<
6. Collect tears.

I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules.


A simple check by a Dev or GM to find any other characters on the same account, or any accounts linked to the same email address or customer information would cover most of those eventualities. There are ways around that but it would require a fair amount of effort, not something your ordinary rookie ganker is capable of.

Anyone going so far as to set up another account under false credentials, using a separate email address and possibly even a different IP address just to grief other players using this mechanic is not going to be swayed by the rules, no matter HOW harsh they are, because clearly they would be mentally ill.


if anything can be learned by this game is IF its possible it WILL come to be simple as that. People will always push the extreme to it's limits until either a line is drawn in the sand or they're reprimanded for it
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#227 - 2012-06-13 12:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
GM Homonoia wrote:
See the post made by GM Spiral above. GM discretion is applied here and we generally do not protect veteran players, but if a rookie gets caught in the crossfire we act accordingly.


Was looking through the OPs killboard (lol) and found this.

At the time, the victim, one Viking Deninard, was two months old. I would consider this, judging by your statements, to be completely fine, as it is clear that the OP (likely) ninja'd (ie stole a can in a mission) from Viking Deninard. He then proceeded to kill this guy, once he shot Tah'ris. Despite the character's age, he is in a Machariel (which is an obvious noob mistake at two months), but is not a rookie, in my opinion. What is your take on this, as a point of reference.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#228 - 2012-06-13 12:48:26 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities

1. Create new toon
2. Set course to Hek
3. Probe a mission runner
4. Steal loot
5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you<
6. Collect tears.

I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules.


I considered this as well and see it as another reason why the GMs can not engrave rules into stone. What I fail to understand is why some people are so hellbent on being F'n dumb.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#229 - 2012-06-13 12:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Personally I feel some of the GM's are not up to the job and their discretion is poorly implementated. I also feel that rookies should not be protected and in-game mechanics should be used in place to help rookie pilots understand the basic nature of eve. If a rookie gets killed its not as if they lose much in the first place. What if a new player buys a character with an officer fit tengu. Can they be classed as rookies? What about alts?

I don't kill rookies myself unless Im at war with them or something like that.

Personally I don't think a GM or a senior GM response is good enough in this manner. I would much prefer an official CCP response and also some CSM responses.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#230 - 2012-06-13 12:51:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Jacob Holland wrote:
Wasn't there mention a while back (I can't remember how long but it was new forums) about theft of "unique" mission items, particularly from the epic arcs, being counted as griefing?



Well, this rule doesn't exist about unique missions, couldn't finish my single life time Concord mission (highest one) because some guy just got there while I was cleaning the first room and "'magically" took the second gate while there were still mobs in the room, took the trigger Item and put it on contracts for 100M.

GM's response was that if he scanned me and used in game tools he could do this. Nice stuff.

WTB skill aloud to pass gates while gate is blocked because of rats... Nice one.

On topic:

I guess I will not make my self an ulcer after all, as I was just rightly supposing OP is just a scumbag spreading rumours with no facts and baiting dumb people like he loves to bait/kill rookies.

Should get a permanent ban for being such a douche

brb
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2012-06-13 12:51:51 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities

1. Create new toon
2. Set course to Hek
3. Probe a mission runner
4. Steal loot
5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you<
6. Collect tears.

I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules.


I considered this as well and see it as another reason why the GMs can not engrave rules into stone. What I fail to understand is why some people are so hellbent on being F'n dumb.


Rules will be abused.

Educate the new players, then you do not need to pollute the sandbox with rules.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#232 - 2012-06-13 12:53:07 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
Personally I feel some of the GM's are not up to the job and their discretion is poorly implementated. I also feel that rookies should not be protected and in-game mechanics should be used in place to help rookie pilots understand the basic nature of eve. If a rookie gets killed its not as if they lose much in the first place. What if a new player buys a character with an officer fit tengu. Can they be classed as rookies? What about alts?

I don't kill rookies myself unless Im at war with them or something like that.

Personally I don't think a GM or a senior GM response is good enough in this manner. I would much prefer an official GM response and also some CSM responses.



And people like you are exactly the reason such rules DO exist. Perhaps when you are all growed up, and you run your own business that relies on not only getting, but retaining, new customers then you will have a slightly better attitude.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#233 - 2012-06-13 12:53:47 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities

1. Create new toon
2. Set course to Hek
3. Probe a mission runner
4. Steal loot
5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you<
6. Collect tears.

I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules.


I considered this as well and see it as another reason why the GMs can not engrave rules into stone. What I fail to understand is why some people are so hellbent on being F'n dumb.


Rules will be abused.

Educate the new players, then you do not need to pollute the sandbox with rules.




Seems that are the older ones that need some education

brb
Gatosai
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
#234 - 2012-06-13 12:56:31 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
Personally I feel some of the GM's are not up to the job and their discretion is poorly implementated. I also feel that rookies should not be protected and in-game mechanics should be used in place to help rookie pilots understand the basic nature of eve. If a rookie gets killed its not as if they lose much in the first place. What if a new player buys a character with an officer fit tengu. Can they be classed as rookies? What about alts?

I don't kill rookies myself unless Im at war with them or something like that.

Personally I don't think a GM or a senior GM response is good enough in this manner. I would much prefer an official GM response and also some CSM responses.


oh yea sure might as well ask your local butcher for his opinion too i suppose?
Luis Graca
#235 - 2012-06-13 12:59:28 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:





Don't push the line and we will not have to draw it.



It's a game you have to draw a line otherwise players will do it because it's fun and thats the propose of any game
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#236 - 2012-06-13 12:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tah'ris Khlador
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

Should get a permanent ban for being such a douche


I prefer the term "Total D*ck". I feel it describes me better.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#237 - 2012-06-13 12:59:44 UTC
Gatosai wrote:
Terranid Meester wrote:
Personally I feel some of the GM's are not up to the job and their discretion is poorly implementated. I also feel that rookies should not be protected and in-game mechanics should be used in place to help rookie pilots understand the basic nature of eve. If a rookie gets killed its not as if they lose much in the first place. What if a new player buys a character with an officer fit tengu. Can they be classed as rookies? What about alts?

I don't kill rookies myself unless Im at war with them or something like that.

Personally I don't think a GM or a senior GM response is good enough in this manner. I would much prefer an official GM response and also some CSM responses.


oh yea sure might as well ask your local butcher for his opinion too i suppose?


Local butcher might be the mayor or a member of the parish council.

I meant to say CCP response.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#238 - 2012-06-13 12:59:47 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:



Seems that are the older ones that need some education


its very simple. The older player drops a can.The rookie takes stuff from it because he thinks it is free. He explodes because nobody told him how the game works.

If the rookie knew he could be aggressed by the owner after he stole from the can, he would not steal. -> problem solved, no extra rules needed and no tears from the new player.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#239 - 2012-06-13 13:01:02 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
Gatosai wrote:
Terranid Meester wrote:
Personally I feel some of the GM's are not up to the job and their discretion is poorly implementated. I also feel that rookies should not be protected and in-game mechanics should be used in place to help rookie pilots understand the basic nature of eve. If a rookie gets killed its not as if they lose much in the first place. What if a new player buys a character with an officer fit tengu. Can they be classed as rookies? What about alts?

I don't kill rookies myself unless Im at war with them or something like that.

Personally I don't think a GM or a senior GM response is good enough in this manner. I would much prefer an official GM response and also some CSM responses.


oh yea sure might as well ask your local butcher for his opinion too i suppose?


Local butcher might be the mayor or a member of the parish council.

I meant to say CCP response.


You got a CCP response. /me looks at my GM tag. Yep, CCP

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#240 - 2012-06-13 13:02:07 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities

1. Create new toon
2. Set course to Hek
3. Probe a mission runner
4. Steal loot
5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you<
6. Collect tears.

I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules.


What a.....

If you steal the loot you know what you are doing and you deserve not only to be killed by said player but also a ban account for being such a douche.


brb