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The weak, and the strong
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#81 - 2012-06-12 21:37:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


It was one of the first things talked about at fanfest, it has had articles dedicated to it in gaming periodicals, and you could google the financial information for yourself, and people did so and posted the information right here in this forum. It is also visibly demonstrate-able by logging into the server, or observing it via the API system.


Then you should be able to provide evidence for your wild accusations then.


I have not made any wild accusations. I have simply reiterated.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-06-12 21:44:06 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

Either Eve players were originally against Eve players, or they weren't. RP reasons have nothing to do with it anymore than strategic or tactical ones do.


But I think they did, in the "good old days". Nowadays, the metagame has taken over to such an extent that what was originally in-game conflict in in-game terms is bleeding out to two camps of players who are paranoid that the other camp is ruining their game experience.

That didn't used to be the case. In the old days, the carebear vs leet pvp-er stuff was just joshing, mostly done with a sense of irony, because pvp-ers understood that miners were important, and miners understood that pvp-ers were important TO THEIR RESPECTIVE GAMES.

Nowadays, it's serious biznes - stuff is at stake. Some pvp players really are paranoid that carebears will ruin their sandbox. Some pve players really are paranoid that pvp-ers will ruin their sandbox. So the PvP is bleeding through into the real world a bit. One camp of players wants the other camp of players to GTFO of EVE.

Originally, both camps were united against players who didn't like EVE. Now two camps of players who do like EVE are at each others' throats, and there's a lot of imaginary accusations about motivation flying around.

"A kingdom that is divided shall not stand" - Mark 3:24
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#83 - 2012-06-12 21:57:19 UTC
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

Either Eve players were originally against Eve players, or they weren't. RP reasons have nothing to do with it anymore than strategic or tactical ones do.


But I think they did, in the "good old days". Nowadays, the metagame has taken over to such an extent that what was originally in-game conflict in in-game terms is bleeding out to two camps of players who are paranoid that the other camp is ruining their game experience.

That didn't used to be the case. In the old days, the carebear vs leet pvp-er stuff was just joshing, mostly done with a sense of irony, because pvp-ers understood that miners were important, and miners understood that pvp-ers were important TO THEIR RESPECTIVE GAMES.

Nowadays, it's serious biznes - stuff is at stake. Some pvp players really are paranoid that carebears will ruin their sandbox. Some pve players really are paranoid that pvp-ers will ruin their sandbox. So the PvP is bleeding through into the real world a bit. One camp of players wants the other camp of players to GTFO of EVE.

Originally, both camps were united against players who didn't like EVE. Now two camps of players who do like EVE are at each others' throats, and there's a lot of imaginary accusations about motivation flying around.

"A kingdom that is divided shall not stand" - Mark 3:24

Religious implication of the quote notwithstanding, Eve Online is not a kingdom.

It's an empire. With four racial factions and countless player-based ones.

The game was not designed to give us a warm fuzzy sense of coming together with our fellow players as men and equals.

It was designed to give us a cold bleak sense of tearing down everything our enemies built even if it costs us every last ISK we have.

Or that's the way it looks in all the catchy ads.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#84 - 2012-06-12 22:04:58 UTC
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

Either Eve players were originally against Eve players, or they weren't. RP reasons have nothing to do with it anymore than strategic or tactical ones do.


But I think they did, in the "good old days". Nowadays, the metagame has taken over to such an extent that what was originally in-game conflict in in-game terms is bleeding out to two camps of players who are paranoid that the other camp is ruining their game experience.

That didn't used to be the case. In the old days, the carebear vs leet pvp-er stuff was just joshing, mostly done with a sense of irony, because pvp-ers understood that miners were important, and miners understood that pvp-ers were important TO THEIR RESPECTIVE GAMES.

Nowadays, it's serious biznes - stuff is at stake. Some pvp players really are paranoid that carebears will ruin their sandbox. Some pve players really are paranoid that pvp-ers will ruin their sandbox. So the PvP is bleeding through into the real world a bit. One camp of players wants the other camp of players to GTFO of EVE.

Originally, both camps were united against players who didn't like EVE. Now two camps of players who do like EVE are at each others' throats, and there's a lot of imaginary accusations about motivation flying around.

"A kingdom that is divided shall not stand" - Mark 3:24


Difference between then and now is the new generation of people who seem to have no grasp of risk or consiquences. Rther than fit a tank they will whine its too hard. You see this in all walks of life these days, they want everything now and anything that stops them is a bad thing that should go away.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#85 - 2012-06-12 22:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Talon SilverHawk
Jenn aSide wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Andoria Thara wrote:
weak and strong?

Try living through a deployment to a 3rd world country, then we'll talk weak and strong.

This is just a video game.

Some people Roll


At the risk of injecting more "IRL" stuff, i'm a police officer when i'm not at home blowing up people in space ships. I work in a low income area, does that count?

lol

The point is, people demonstrate character with their actions. The miners complaining about something that has always existed are demonstrating bad character.



Boll*cks


and it hasn't always existed


Tal



please point out the patch notes for the patch that introduced suicide ganking, thanks.



I don't need patch notes. Playing the game for 9 years is enough to know its changed. While there has always been an element for getting caught out in hi sec, which to be honest is one of the reasons I like the game, it has become more prevalent over the last 4 /5 years. 2009 was the first hulkageddon (correct me if wrong) and the first real Eve wide organised attack on miners and hi sec, before that it happened of course but you where unlucky if you got caught this way. For pretty much the first year or two (maybe longer) afk mining was pretty standard as a chill out activity (mining while maybe surfing the web or whoring the forums) and getting ganked wasn't even a consideration (in hi sec).

Hi sec was even made safer after some famous events bought up in these forums, but those guys were small corps (mOo and such) so unless you operated where they worked or put yourself in harms way, you weren't in allot of danger.

The issue now isn't so much the ganking as the scale of the ganking, What was once the activity of a few, has now become the activity of many (Goons for example). Once upon a time to be honourable seemed to de rigueur, not so much any more.

So moving because of a change in the culture of Eve and not the mechanics, doesn't make you weak, just means its not for you right now. (although I do exlude the guy trolling about salvaging)


Tal

P.S if you read it earlier, operation was ok, guy is now in recovery Smile
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2012-06-12 22:53:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
MasterEnt wrote:
Please explain to me how using a combat ship to attack a non-combat ship is strong?


Somali skiffs vs bulk tankers

U-boats vs merchant ships

Slave ships vs a royal navy 5th rate

Spanish gold ships vs gallions

Trade hulks vs triremes

Piracy is not a new thing here. Its history goes back for as long as merchant ships have existed. Why would EVE be any different?

You conveniently forgot to include what happened to those engaging in Piracy activities. Granted there will always be a small amount of Piracy happening in isolated areas but history has shown time and time again when it becomes a large scale activity affecting the welfare of citizens, the Authorities will hunt them down, kill them and or force them into hiding.

Seems it's always the same MO with players who advocate and try to justify the massive increase of Suicide Ganking in this game. Always trying to 'Rationalize away' opposing statements using broad 'Generalizations' presented with half truth 'Examples'.


'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#87 - 2012-06-12 22:59:35 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
MasterEnt wrote:
Please explain to me how using a combat ship to attack a non-combat ship is strong?


Somali skiffs vs bulk tankers

U-boats vs merchant ships

Slave ships vs a royal navy 5th rate

Spanish gold ships vs gallions

Trade hulks vs triremes

Piracy is not a new thing here. Its history goes back for as long as merchant ships have existed. Why would EVE be any different?

You conveniently forgot to include what happened to those engaging in Piracy activities. Granted there will always be a small amount of Piracy happening in isolated areas but history has shown time and time again when it becomes a large scale activity affecting the welfare of citizens, the Authorities will hunt them down, kill them and or force them into hiding.

Seems it's always the same MO with players who advocate and try to justify the massive increase of Suicide Ganking in this game. Always trying to 'Rationalize away' opposing statements using broad 'Generalizations' presented with half truth 'Examples'.

In EVE the most powerful Authorities are the players.

And I don't expect anything to change any time soon there...Roll

This isn't an attempt to rationalize away opposing statements using broad generalizations presented with half-truth examples.

This is a truth in the context of the original game design, supported by continued and ongoing development, and as stated repeatedly by CCP.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Christopher Dulson
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2012-06-12 23:07:46 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Confirming I have a giant EM hole on my mission runner. Big smile




I feel like a giant nerd when i really laughed out loud over this
Raekek
Catharsis.
#89 - 2012-06-12 23:23:41 UTC
Why are they up in arms? Partly because of the month long 9.95 $/€ new account sale (even cheaper on Stream for a week or two). There are lots of new players, and they're accustomed having things handed to them in other MMOs. They've just begun EVE's painful learning process.

Also, when you say "some of the high sec miner types" are up in arms, you mean a handful of very verbal forum posters. Most new players that do enjoy the game probably don't feel as tempted to post on the forum. So the overall attitude of the GD is biased in favor of whining players.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#90 - 2012-06-12 23:32:34 UTC
Raekek wrote:
Why are they up in arms? Partly because of the month long 9.95 $/€ new account sale (even cheaper on Stream for a week or two). There are lots of new players, and they're accustomed having things handed to them in other MMOs. They've just begun EVE's painful learning process.

Also, when you say "some of the high sec miner types" are up in arms, you mean a handful of very verbal forum posters. Most new players that do enjoy the game probably don't feel as tempted to post on the forum. So the overall attitude of the GD is biased in favor of whining players.



Not having a go, but I would say GD doesnt favour the whining player, for every whine post there are about 20+ HTFU responses (very approx but you know what mean.)

Tal





baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#91 - 2012-06-12 23:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

You conveniently forgot to include what happened to those engaging in Piracy activities. Granted there will always be a small amount of Piracy happening in isolated areas but history has shown time and time again when it becomes a large scale activity affecting the welfare of citizens, the Authorities will hunt them down, kill them and or force them into hiding.

Seems it's always the same MO with players who advocate and try to justify the massive increase of Suicide Ganking in this game. Always trying to 'Rationalize away' opposing statements using broad 'Generalizations' presented with half truth 'Examples'.




The Spanish sent an armada to deal with English raiders on their gold ships. It was wiped out and the piracy continued. But hey, your right. People adapted and ended the problem, or at least reduced the risk. Exactly what people in EVE should be doing.
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-06-12 23:39:38 UTC
up until World War 1.
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-06-12 23:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbelo Valentinian
Darth Gustav wrote:
Quote:

"A kingdom that is divided shall not stand" - Mark 3:24

Religious implication of the quote notwithstanding, Eve Online is not a kingdom.


Reference to the metagame, the absolutely fundamental one being CCP's attempt to make money out of players. CCP is God in these parts.

If the players (howsoever they behave in-game) are at each others' throats (to some extent irl, with each side making rl accusations like "sociopath" and "weak" and trying to force the other playstyle out of the game) then there's a problem for CCP, because the actual game concept requires both PvE and PvP participation.

Check the rp sub-forum to see how different it is when such terms are thrown around in the course of roleplay, in reference to the player character, to the way the terms are thrown around in General, in reference to the player.

Both sides bring rl into the discussion, both types of stigma are insulting the rl person. But neither type of accusation has any place because ... EVE is a just a game.

But it's a game that you pretend is real. As soon as the "pretend" element fades, and people start bleeding rl mutual hatred, gamer vs. gamer, playstyle vs. playstyle, into the forums, then there's a problem - a "fence" and a problem.
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#94 - 2012-06-13 00:03:12 UTC
Raekek wrote:

Also, when you say "some of the high sec miner types" are up in arms, you mean a handful of very verbal forum posters.

And some bot users no doubt. We have already seen one thread calling for the removal of suicide ganking from a bot user who thinks that 'botting is no worse than scamming'.
Josef Djugashvilis
#95 - 2012-06-13 00:10:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


"EVE is a game" is true. It is also a dodge.

EVE is (among other things) an activity. One filled with both weak willed and strong willed people. As in real life, the strong willed will find a way to do what they want regardless of the actions of others. The Weak willed will quit or whine/rage about unfariness. If you don't think enough of your chosen pass time/activiy to adapt to chainging circumstances to stay in that passtime/activity (because it's just a game), then why do it in the 1st place?

The people whining on the forums about the unfairness of having their Hulk smashed rather than being silent aren't observing the "it's just a game rule". If it were just a game to them, they'd simpyl log out/unsub and be gone, right?

This is not to say that EVE online is perfect and that no dissent is warranted, we all have thing we don't like, or that we think could be inproved. But we aren't talking about that, we are talking about weak minded individuals who buy into fallacy-land logic like "what's bad for me is bad for the game".

Which is why I say EVE may not be "real", but it mimics real life in one key aspect: only the strong survive.


Yet more tedious pixel hardman tosh.

This is not a signature.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#96 - 2012-06-13 00:13:30 UTC
Random Majere wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


The people whining on the forums about the unfairness of having their Hulk smashed rather than being silent aren't observing the "it's just a game rule". If it were just a game to them, they'd simpyl log out/unsub and be gone, right?



If people whining on the forums bothers you...that makes you weak.


If people playing the game they way they want to, not the way you want them to bothers you, that makes you weak. Well, not you personally, but in the general sense.

Jenn aSide wrote:

Scien Inkunen wrote:
Strong survive - my ass. Wolf pack survive.


Join wolfpack?


Yes, be a follower. Walk in the path blazed by others better than you, yeah?

Jenn aSide wrote:
So much wrong here.

But i'll adress one simple point. They made it my right to judge them in public by complaining in public. If a person simply quits the game or quits mining over the ganking but remains silent, I still have a negative opinion of them, but won't go out of my way to say it.

But these guys are doing it on the forums. Thus my suggestion to take a page from mission runners (who gave up some isk making ability by taking off the officer mods lol).

In my country (I'm American), some people like to throw up the whole "I have a right to free speech" thing when you say something against them. That's true,YOU do, so do I.

I'm not ccp, I can't force them to stop complaining, but by complaining without trying to adapt 1st, they consent to me and others calling them names like "weak" lol, just like how undocking in eve is consenting to pvp.........


And this is where I have to really stop and say, WTF are you smoking? They consent to you doing such things? That's like the guy who assaulted the woman consented to it because of the way she dressed, or the mugger saying that the well-to-do gentleman consented to being mugged because he walked in the wrong neighborhood with his wallet. You have a very strong and overpowering sense of self-entitlement there bud. Confriming you are American only backs that theory up. I'm American too, but I believe in things like respect and doing things right. In game, this wouldn't mean that I wouldn't attack someone if it suited me, but I'm not going to come to the forums and blast the person for it either.

A lot of people don't adapt in this game, but it's not limited to miners and mission runners. It also encompasses those who whine about what little hiseccers do get (compared to nulseccers), saying that they get massive amounts of money and prizes for absolutely no risk whatsoever while they risk everything every second of every day. I've had a member of a large nulsec alliance come out and tell me how much they make safely in their backyard unabashedly. True, not every member of nulsec makes billions upon billions every day, but the payout is substantially larger than hisec could ever dream of being. So tell me, are you gonna bag on them too, for all their whining and moaning and crying? Probably not.Truthfully, you're just another nobody who needs/wants some attention by acting like a hard-ass. Note I said acting, because you aren't strong and you certainly haven't adapted either. You aren't revolutionary, you are just blending in with the crowd.

Sadly, I would wager that the strongest among us are the miners. How many of us could sit here and do what they do? It's mind-numbing, and rather tedious. Way back in the day, I wanted to be an industrialist, but I just could not sit there and mine for long periods of time. After awhile, I wished that I could have those SP back, just so I could put them into something useful for me. Despite my weakness, there are many who not only tolerate it, they love to do it. For them, it's all about their endgame. How many of us can say that we can and would subject ourselves to mining for long hours, the droning hum of the mining lasers our only soundtrack? No thanks, in this, I'll take the easier path, it's has a little more to see.

John Hancock
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-06-13 00:35:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The point is, people demonstrate character with their actions. The miners complaining about something that has always existed are demonstrating bad character.


See, this is one of the big problems with your post - you speak as though New Eden is the real world. Pretty obviously, it isn't, so when you interpret people's actions in Eve as being weak or strong, you're taking them way out of context. You'll never know how strong or weak someone is just by judging their actions in a game. If someone quits Eve because they're not enjoying it, all you really know about them is that they quit because they're not enjoying it.

Following on from that, technically, you're probably right in what you wrote. According to your apparent definitions of strength and weakness, you're right. On the other hand, those definitions make **** all sense unless Eve is your whole life.
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#98 - 2012-06-13 01:39:51 UTC
Jen your asking to much.. Most of these guys don't want to think.. Just run like robots.. Mindless!.. I think this in itself is a crime. But if ccp keeps suppording these types of players.. EVE will need a new name to mimic wow audience. I'm all ears to hear any variation on new eve title. P

Maybe I'm extreme.. Maybe I'm on the ball. Or Maybe I'm just messed up... Too much Crash does that to my clone and deep space with exotic girlies sharing juices..... Twisted

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-06-13 02:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Quote:
But if ccp keeps suppording these types of players


Its these types of players that are supporting CCP, silly. Check the map population.
We are in highsec because we like doing stuff in peace(not 100% safe mind you), you are in hisec because you want to ruin our days because you are too bored with your space.

Hisec and newbies see EVE as a scifi game with a bit of risk and lots of free choices, they enjoy it
You see it as a constant kill or be killed game, you enjoy it. What they don't enjoy is being constant victims unless they start seeing the game through your eyes. At that point EVE becomes a game that they don't want to play.
RAP ACTION HERO
#100 - 2012-06-13 03:00:43 UTC
not weak just dumb

vitoc erryday