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The Voice of highsec
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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-06-20 11:44:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
While I agree that most of these, ahem "demands" are pretty silly, I also agree that there really is no voice for hisec players. I remember the last CSM election and not seeing any candidate who wasn't ultimately just a lobbyist for one nullsec alliance or another.



Which nullsec alliance was Issler Dainze mouthpiecing for?

Goons. Obviously. The wardec and the hilarious alliance mail was just to throw people off.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cameron Cahill
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#42 - 2012-06-20 13:33:20 UTC
I seem to recall a video on youtube that featured the OP raging at a corp thief who pinched his orca and quitting the game to go back to WoW.

What made you come back so we can go make it blow up?
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#43 - 2012-06-22 16:38:40 UTC
The Voice of High Sec is the sound of a carebear emo-raging after being suicide ganked.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-06-22 17:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Takara Mora
Not sure what the right answer to all this is ... but the truth is, EVE will stagnate and/or eventually die unless CCP solves the problem of having created game mechanics where "your best option as a newer player being wardecced/ganked/etc. in Hisec is to simply log out for a week, month, forever".

No game designer should be stupid enough to actually ENCOURAGE their players to LOG OFF.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-06-23 02:57:58 UTC
For the point of debate, why should EVE or the CSM care about high sec?


Take 50% of the whine on the forum over the past few months. A lot of that were hi sec players who had no idea what was going on, fail fitted their hulks, and ended up waaaing in the forums. If hi sec has a reputation of not knowing about the game, CCP isn't care very much about what they have to say. As long as the carebears have their missions, that's good enough. Every time someone says remove pvp from hi, I'm sure a lot of people find a way to care less about hi.

I can has blogging skills!
Jih'dara
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-06-24 04:10:50 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Not sure what the right answer to all this is ... but the truth is, EVE will stagnate and/or eventually die unless CCP solves the problem of having created game mechanics where "your best option as a newer player being wardecced/ganked/etc. in Hisec is to simply log out for a week, month, forever".

No game designer should be stupid enough to actually ENCOURAGE their players to LOG OFF.


I'm not sure if this is true.

I think if you are in a player corporation and you are war decced by a bigger, older corporation, some would suggest that you and your corpies could stay station docked (or logged off) for a week to deny them targets.

Other options include moving to a new region, hiring mercenaries, or even fighting back.

If you never leave the NPC corporation, you are safe from being war decced, BUT you have to pay 11% taxes.

Joining a GOOD player corporation is another option too. A GOOD corporation will provide you with ships and training.

You also have three character slots. You could make a different character for each slot, and put each one in a different corporation if you wanted to. That way, if your PvP character was at war, you could leave him or her docked up while taking your miner or missioner out for a week or so. Your option.

You are 'safe' while docked. You can even engage in station trading while docked. It doesn't mean you have to be logged out.
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Imperial Dreams
#47 - 2012-06-24 05:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephiroth Clone VII
also suicide ganking generally only occurs if you have something that is worth ganking vs the tank.

ie ,no random missioning ship (tech 1 BC BS) tech 2 or lower fit will be generally suicide ganked, generally its the tech 3 and or faction/officer fit deadspace ship.

Other ships, unless you have expensive cargo not really, and if you die with expensive cargo chances are you are not a fresh out of rookie ship noob, just stupid.

Relating to the topic maker, eve is a different game, and frankly if you think everything should be 100% safe and crime free, you are in the wrong game. What I see as a epidemic of stupid, the tutorial or game resources should try better to erase the stupid.

1. if you are out of NPC corp you could get war decked

2. undocking could result in your ship being blown up

3. Fitting or carrying around expensive things is not always the best idea, you don't work your way to the 'best gear' for a class, no item is truly the best, it is only good in the measure of effectiveness vs cost. eve has a free loot system where anything you posses that is taken out of station can be lost stolen or blown up at any time.


I hear black prophecy has a spaceship no-consequence style gameplay where items have levels of increasingly good and you sort of gear up a ship just like a class in wow. If you get the top rated gun on your ship you never have to worry about losing it, or the ship itself. I was a bit disappointing in the game with regards to this making actions in the game generally meaningless, but it might be a better fit for the wow crowd.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-06-25 06:26:48 UTC
So I support the idea of a highsec voting block. But I do not support some of the basic tenants that OP is lobbying for. 'Less greifing?' -- Going to have to elaborate on this, but in general, that is NO.
more PvE content -- OK, I will support this. Seems harmless.
No power item shop? -- not sure what this is, but I am listenting.

I am a big highsec trader, but I have friends in null, so I can say that I represent views from both places. My tenant is play balance, over special interest groups, 'no stupid play breaking features', and more fairness while keeping the sandbox.

+1 for a highsec union.
(let's see how you want to organize this. )
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2012-06-25 09:49:22 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:
So I support the idea of a highsec voting block. But I do not support some of the basic tenants that OP is lobbying for. 'Less greifing?' -- Going to have to elaborate on this, but in general, that is NO.
more PvE content -- OK, I will support this. Seems harmless.
No power item shop? -- not sure what this is, but I am listenting.

I am a big highsec trader, but I have friends in null, so I can say that I represent views from both places. My tenant is play balance, over special interest groups, 'no stupid play breaking features', and more fairness while keeping the sandbox.

+1 for a highsec union.
(let's see how you want to organize this. )



I think by power items, he means AUR for gold ammo and better ships. If that's the case, then I really don't see why that's a highsec only issue, not an all of EVE issue. Same with more PvE content really, hubs get boring after a while.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-06-25 11:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
What about this for a highsec / low SP improvement feature?
Hauling jump clones for cash. ( I came with this idea a while back it got some positive support but deemed not important enough for the big nullsec alliances ). With a tiny tweak to the contract system it can be a fun non boring-mission way of starting a career for haulers.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-06-25 12:52:19 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Kaelie Onren wrote:
So I support the idea of a highsec voting block. But I do not support some of the basic tenants that OP is lobbying for. 'Less greifing?' -- Going to have to elaborate on this, but in general, that is NO.
more PvE content -- OK, I will support this. Seems harmless.
No power item shop? -- not sure what this is, but I am listenting.

I am a big highsec trader, but I have friends in null, so I can say that I represent views from both places. My tenant is play balance, over special interest groups, 'no stupid play breaking features', and more fairness while keeping the sandbox.

+1 for a highsec union.
(let's see how you want to organize this. )



I think by power items, he means AUR for gold ammo and better ships. If that's the case, then I really don't see why that's a highsec only issue, not an all of EVE issue. Same with more PvE content really, hubs get boring after a while.


In that case yeah. I support this too as it is against my fairness ideology.
That is you should not be able to buy with RM an advantage in the game.
(plex being the only exception and that has natural economic controls)
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-06-26 23:05:38 UTC
Silly question but what does the "high sec" vote feel about T3s in high? I'd like to think that under your no griefing clause, the uber rich are griefing the poor by flaunting their billion dollar ships and running high sec sites. It is clear that T3s should be relegated to low and null like caps.

I can has blogging skills!
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2012-06-27 00:30:49 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
Silly question but what does the "high sec" vote feel about T3s in high? I'd like to think that under your no griefing clause, the uber rich are griefing the poor by flaunting their billion dollar ships and running high sec sites. It is clear that T3s should be relegated to low and null like caps.



T3s aren't the only billion isk ships though. If you ban those, what about marauders? Or faction battleships? Or freighters? Should all those be banned from highsec as well? And if so, what about blinged out regular BS? Or officer fit rifters?
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-06-27 01:32:47 UTC
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
also suicide ganking generally only occurs if you have something that is worth ganking vs the tank.

ie ,no random missioning ship (tech 1 BC BS) tech 2 or lower fit will be generally suicide ganked, generally its the tech 3 and or faction/officer fit deadspace ship.

Other ships, unless you have expensive cargo not really, and if you die with expensive cargo chances are you are not a fresh out of rookie ship noob, just stupid.

Relating to the topic maker, eve is a different game, and frankly if you think everything should be 100% safe and crime free, you are in the wrong game. What I see as a epidemic of stupid, the tutorial or game resources should try better to erase the stupid.

1. if you are out of NPC corp you could get war decked

2. undocking could result in your ship being blown up

3. Fitting or carrying around expensive things is not always the best idea, you don't work your way to the 'best gear' for a class, no item is truly the best, it is only good in the measure of effectiveness vs cost. eve has a free loot system where anything you posses that is taken out of station can be lost stolen or blown up at any time.


I hear black prophecy has a spaceship no-consequence style gameplay where items have levels of increasingly good and you sort of gear up a ship just like a class in wow. If you get the top rated gun on your ship you never have to worry about losing it, or the ship itself. I was a bit disappointing in the game with regards to this making actions in the game generally meaningless, but it might be a better fit for the wow crowd.



Great post - just to confirm tho, no I do not believe everything should be 100% safe in hisec ... again, I don't know what the "right" solution is, but I feel it's a very big problem that newer players are in fact encouraged by game mechanics to log out (assuming they don't hang out in NPC corps or join large power blobs but who would want to do that). Sure, they can create alts (tho they won't have any skills usually), station camp, etc. .... but from my experience a huge number of them simply logout instead. Since wardeccers can simply dock up at will, there is no real way to combat them, and no way to "win" a war (since wardeccers don't have to risk any assets such as POS's, etc.), and engaging them on any level simply encourages them to wardec you more, so best option logically is unfortunately logout).
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#55 - 2012-06-27 21:07:16 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Not sure what the right answer to all this is ... but the truth is, EVE will stagnate and/or eventually die unless CCP solves the problem of having created game mechanics where "your best option as a newer player being wardecced/ganked/etc. in Hisec is to simply log out for a week, month, forever".

No game designer should be stupid enough to actually ENCOURAGE their players to LOG OFF.

No offense , but developers listening to players like you are the reason so many other MMO's have died. EVE has been around for over 9 years and is still going strong.

Many players think they want easy no risk gameplay, but once they get it, they quickly become bored and quit. It is the high risk and steep learning curve that has made EVE so popular and given it it's longevity.

Your best option as a new player is not to log off, but to learn how the game mechanics work and learn to use them to your advantage. that is where the challenge comes in. If they turn the game into something that is a cake walk for new players than the experienced players will get bored way to easy and then the game will die.

Every MMO that has catered to making the new players feel welcome has failed as the callenge of the game becomes to short lived and gets boring.

Look at SWG for example. It was a great game with great potential. but the learning curve was steep and new players had to work hard to get a foothold, it took lots of time and work to become a Jedi which you could lose if you where not careful. Overall a great game. But they gave into the new players complaining on the forums and dumbed the game down which resulted in a very rapid decline and slow painful death.

The harder a game is to master and reach end game the more players it will draw. Many may complain about difficult game mechanics but they will stay for the challenge. At least most will. As far as PVP goes no current MMO has as steep of a death penalty as EVE. If you die you lose your ship. That can be a simple PVP frigate or a Titan but you still lose it. Yet EVE has continued to be a successful PVP MMO while many many other MMO's with no PVP death penalty have died off after a very short amount of time.
Even look at the new Star Wars the Old Republic. It was one of the most anticipated games of the last 5 years yet it was designed for new players and held very little challenge. I played the beta for 6 months and never even bought the game as I was so disappointed in it. Within a few weeks you could be at end game, only a few months you could experience all it had to offer. What a disappointment. Is this what you want EVE to become?
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-06-27 23:27:04 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
T3s aren't the only billion isk ships though. If you ban those, what about marauders? Or faction battleships? Or freighters? Should all those be banned from highsec as well? And if so, what about blinged out regular BS? Or officer fit rifters?


You know, I don't know if I can support a group that doesn't want to purge high sec of a type of ship that needs to be put at risk and destroyed... they aren't meant for use there, and should be removed.

I can has blogging skills!
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-06-28 03:32:40 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:
Not sure what the right answer to all this is ... but the truth is, EVE will stagnate and/or eventually die unless CCP solves the problem of having created game mechanics where "your best option as a newer player being wardecced/ganked/etc. in Hisec is to simply log out for a week, month, forever".

No game designer should be stupid enough to actually ENCOURAGE their players to LOG OFF.

No offense , but developers listening to players like you are the reason so many other MMO's have died. EVE has been around for over 9 years and is still going strong.

Many players think they want easy no risk gameplay, but once they get it, they quickly become bored and quit. It is the high risk and steep learning curve that has made EVE so popular and given it it's longevity.

Your best option as a new player is not to log off, but to learn how the game mechanics work and learn to use them to your advantage. that is where the challenge comes in. If they turn the game into something that is a cake walk for new players than the experienced players will get bored way to easy and then the game will die.

Every MMO that has catered to making the new players feel welcome has failed as the callenge of the game becomes to short lived and gets boring.

Look at SWG for example. It was a great game with great potential. but the learning curve was steep and new players had to work hard to get a foothold, it took lots of time and work to become a Jedi which you could lose if you where not careful. Overall a great game. But they gave into the new players complaining on the forums and dumbed the game down which resulted in a very rapid decline and slow painful death.

The harder a game is to master and reach end game the more players it will draw. Many may complain about difficult game mechanics but they will stay for the challenge. At least most will. As far as PVP goes no current MMO has as steep of a death penalty as EVE. If you die you lose your ship. That can be a simple PVP frigate or a Titan but you still lose it. Yet EVE has continued to be a successful PVP MMO while many many other MMO's with no PVP death penalty have died off after a very short amount of time.
Even look at the new Star Wars the Old Republic. It was one of the most anticipated games of the last 5 years yet it was designed for new players and held very little challenge. I played the beta for 6 months and never even bought the game as I was so disappointed in it. Within a few weeks you could be at end game, only a few months you could experience all it had to offer. What a disappointment. Is this what you want EVE to become?




a) I didn't ask for risk free - I simply pointed out that currently the mechanics encourage newer players to log out rather than playing in the face of no-win; no-gain situations
b) It doesn't really matter how "easy" hisec gets. I'm not advocating making it "easy", but for those that somehow think abusing players is fun (by subjecting them to incomprehensible UI's, etc.), remember that there will always be NullSec and LoSec to provide increased challenge - they are there just waiting for someone, anyone actually, to go and experience all the joy that they provide ...
c) Please stop thinking that EVE is somehow immune to competition from other games ... it's not even hard to think of other games close to the same age age with millions of players instead of EVE's paltry by comparison subscription base. Yet EVE is a much better game (graphics, mechanics, etc.) ... so maybe we should be thinking about what's holding it back?
d) To often it seems the real end game of EVE is all just a bunch of bored bitter vets moving back to hisec so they can get easy kills ... Why should new players subject themselves to the abuse exactly? As I mentioned, I'm sick of watching new players quit right and left as a result of such interactions ... the bitter vets get their jollies, but nobody wins in the end ...
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#58 - 2012-06-28 14:39:46 UTC
Say what you will but the harder a game is to learn and master no more sense of reward you get from suceeding while playing that game.
With regards to many other games out there with millions of subscribers. I have played most of them. And although one of the big problems is, their player base is spread over several servers, I have yet to play one where you can regularly expect over 40,000 players logged in at the same time to the same game world.

I apologize if I came across as a little arrogant but this is a sore subject for me. I watched the last several MMO's I have played be slowly ruined by the developers on the guise of making them more noob friendly, and easier to learn. Dozens of games I have played in the last 5 years and it has ended badly for all of them.

I think the biggest advantage EVE has over most other MMO's is the true open sand box. there is no max level or final endgame where you have basically finished the game. True once you have gotten into a Titan and learned how to actually use it well there is little left grow as a pilot, but oyu could lose that Titan that took months to get in minutes. You can always continue to grow you character in skills and wealth with no max level. As it stands now it would take over 20 years to max out all the skills in game, and the game is only 9 years old, so even the Vets here since beta have only maxed maybe half the skills. Not that most players would have need of every skill but it is still much better than other games where once you hit max level there is nothing you can do to make your character better aside from grinding for the best gear. That get boring long before 9 years.

WOW boasts that they have hit over 8 million subscribers, Yet, logging into that game it feels as though it is dieing and nobody cares. If you bother to log onto one of the higher population servers it is 10 times worse of a gankfest than EVE ever could be.
even everquest and everquest II are only shadows of what they once were. Games that were at one time thriving, now you hardly pass another player when traveling down the street of area's that used to be crowded.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#59 - 2012-06-29 09:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
Lady Flute wrote:
The thread on Hulkageddon showed the sharp division in the community.

At a blunt level, Highsec needs CSM votes. Not just getting the attention of the null sec crowd who don't really care, but its own voice on the CSM itself. But to those who ridicule highsec players, know only this: CCP wants more players. They are not going to get them without increasing Highsec player retention, so guess what, changes are going to happen whether you like it or not.



Kristoffer Touborg/CCP Soundwave wrote:
It isn’t really hard, but I think there are customers that you can lose in a good way and there’s customers that you can lose in a bad way. If people come in and fundamentally don’t like EVE Online, then I think that might be a good way of losing customers. EVE isn’t for everyone. I wish it was, but the reality is that there are some people who just enjoy playing another game more. And that’s not really that bad.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/27/eve-devs-our-game-is-the-mmo-equivalent-of-running-inferno-solo-with-a-naked-barbarian/

Kristoffer Touborg/CCP Soundwave wrote:
I was about to say “Here’s a Rubik’s cube, go f%$^ yourself,” because that’s what we do with EVE Online.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/25/eve-online-devs-on-dayz-elder-scrolls-online-and-whatd-make-them-quit-the-games-industry/

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.


You fail to understand this fact, their is no problem with players quiting EvE Online if they don't enjoy the game genre, EvE is a ruthless and unforgiving Sandbox MMO.

This type of game is not everyone, it's a niche product. Some people just can't handle the fact that every single activity you do in this game involves brutal and cruel PvP competition. That type of player should go play other games that suites their carebear extraordinary needs.

The Tears Must Flow
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-06-29 15:06:39 UTC
Great discussion points Bugsy and Vaju.

It seems overall what you are saying, is that perhaps EVE really is just a "Niche" game, and maybe that's how it will survive - by catering to a particular type of player who thrives on it.

That may be true ... it's sad to me though ... IMO, there should be a enough inherent diverisity in EVE, to fit many different styles of gamers .... I hope CCP continues to keep that in mind - we're not all bitter vets looking for easy PVP. Many of us just can't get ourselves all hot and bothered by at the prospect of ruining someone else's day and the bigger they lose the better (though we don't necessarily hold it against the rest of the community either since it adds to overall dark backdrop of EVE in most cases).

I'd like to see CCP come up with more PVP mechanics, not less ..... as I think part of what turns bitter vets bitter, is lack of exciting PVP tools and mechanics to keep them entertained after awhile, other than poaching the next 3 day old Bantam fresh out of the training grounds or gloating over how defenseless even a 200MM well tanked Hulk is under alpha strike (ok, maybe it takes 3 volleys not one if you're well tanked) vs. a few 15MM destroyers. Ironic that these folks keep harping about wanting "EVE to be HARD", but thrive off such easy guaranteed win situations themselves, no?

I don't mean to harp on any one mechanic here - even the examples stated are complex interplays of game balancing rules and may or may have room for improvement ... but I do think Hisec has an important role to play, and one of those is in basically blunting the "15 yr old bully in the sandbox" effect that has the potential to make younger "kids" avoid said sandbox (logout).