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Logistic rep skills?

Author
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#1 - 2012-06-11 13:50:21 UTC
I was wondering it is a must to get Energy Emission and Shield Emission to 5 to fly a Basilisk, or if people just leave them at 4? Is it a MUST to get these to 5 or are they like Logistics 5, something which is good to have but not crucial?

Every skillplan I see only has them at level 1, is there any real benefit from upping them when you have a cap chain? All my other cap skills are at 5, although the Basilisk mainly gets the cap from cap chains between multiple Basilisks.

I'm just a few days away from flying a Basilisk right now, but I'd rather spend an extra week or two if I have to so I don't blow up everyone from lack of skills.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#2 - 2012-06-11 16:36:27 UTC
Of the 2 skills, Energy Emissions is more important.

If you plan on running the Basi or Guardian a lot, these are ships that should be well skilled. IV's at the minimum, V's is just better. (If I recall, you can see/feel the difference too) Your Logi chain is only as good as its weakest link. What would you want the guy next to you to have?

Long term, Capital Energy Emissions requires V also. Same for shield n armor emissions systems.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#3 - 2012-06-11 19:34:54 UTC
I don't have any plans to go into capitals, ever. They're not my kind of ships.

I don't believe I will sit in a Basi a lot so 4 should be enough I guess. Logi 5 isn't worth it for me currently either, so I guess the high slot skills are kind of a waste to get to 5 before I even bother with Logistics 5.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2012-06-11 23:01:05 UTC
Kosetzu wrote:
I don't have any plans to go into capitals, ever. They're not my kind of ships.

I don't believe I will sit in a Basi a lot so 4 should be enough I guess. Logi 5 isn't worth it for me currently either, so I guess the high slot skills are kind of a waste to get to 5 before I even bother with Logistics 5.

Ack! Logistics 5 should be a prerequisite in my opinion. It makes such a huge difference.

Logistics 4 + Basilisk means your cap buddy can't feed cap to anybody else, or has to run with one less shield transfer.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#5 - 2012-06-12 16:25:20 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Kosetzu wrote:
Text

Ack! Logistics 5 should be a prerequisite in my opinion. It makes such a huge difference.

Logistics 4 + Basilisk means your cap buddy can't feed cap to anybody else, or has to run with one less shield transfer.


Logistics 5 gives you a good bonus for sure, but I'd like to fly the ship a bit before I commit myself to that at least.
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-06-13 12:02:13 UTC
The cap transfer logis work ok with the skills at 4 if you dedicate both cap transfers to your logi buddies.
But there will come the moment where you want to fly a Scimi, and that absolutely needs them at 5.
Arox Dax
Empire of Decadence
Empire of Decadence.
#7 - 2012-06-14 01:54:49 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Kosetzu wrote:
I don't have any plans to go into capitals, ever. They're not my kind of ships.

I don't believe I will sit in a Basi a lot so 4 should be enough I guess. Logi 5 isn't worth it for me currently either, so I guess the high slot skills are kind of a waste to get to 5 before I even bother with Logistics 5.

Ack! Logistics 5 should be a prerequisite in my opinion. It makes such a huge difference.

Logistics 4 + Basilisk means your cap buddy can't feed cap to anybody else, or has to run with one less shield transfer.


The bolded part TBH, if you are gonna fly Logi in any meaningful way then Logi V is needed, it's one of those pain in the backside when will it ever end skills, that once you have it, damn do you see/feel the benefit, it's one of those skills that really really makes it worth while training to V, it's the difference between being able to just about fit a ship and being able to fit a ship properly so you can keep your gang members alive, trust me they'll thank you for it.

One of the other skills that you notice a huge difference with is Recon V, again, if you start to go down the recon road, just bite the bullet and train it to V, makes fitting them a whole lot easier
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-06-14 03:20:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Here's the reasoning behind the value of logistics and energy emission systems skills:

An energy transfer module costs slightly more capacitor to activate than it gives to the other ship, that is with no skills affecting the activation cost. This means a completely unskilled cap chain gets no capacitor at all. Now if you have energy emissions skill trained up a bit, each level reduces the activation cost by 5% while not changing the amount of capacitor sent.

Consider the amount of capacitor sent vs. the capacitor cost to send:
capacitor cost: ======================================
capacitor sent: ========================================
----------> the difference between these two values is the total amount of capacitor gain.
Now if you train the skill higher:
capacitor cost: ================================
capacitor sent: ========================================
----------> you increase the margin, and dramatically improve the capacitor gain.

You can improve this margin further with egress port maximizer rigs. The amount is not additive with energy emissions skill, but rather it is cumulative. This means that, say, if your energy emissions skill is at 3 and the cost is reduced to 85%, one egress port rig (15% reduction) will reduce the total cost by 15% of that remaining 85%. That's 12.75 percentage points taken off, to a grand total of just 72.25% cost.

Now, the value of the logistics skill is greater, but because of that, it works a bit differently. The cost is reduced by 15% per level, cumulative with the reduction from energy emissions skill. It is reduced by 45% at level 3, 60% at level 4, and 75% at level 5. The reason it is different is because the margin is so large at higher levels that you aren't getting such a huge increase in total capacitor. Rather than doubling the capacitor coming in, you're just increasing it by, say, 20% or so:
capacitor logi4: ================
capacitor logi5: ==========
capacitor sent : ========================================
capacitor gain : -------------------|======|=======================

So the real value is in how much it costs to run your modules. With about the same capacitor coming in per energy transfer and less needed to run all of the logistics modules, you can use just one energy transfer and five shield/armor repair. With logistics 4 you need two energy transfers. (this applies to the guardian and basilisk)

The oneiros and scimitar don't cap chain, so they need to generate their own capacitor. So, clearly, at logistics 5, they don't need as many capacitor modules, and that frees up a slot or two for better tank or a tracking link.

Finally, at higher amounts of capacitor cost reduction, the egress port rig becomes less useful. Consider if you had a net capacitor cost reduction of 80% (logi 5 and energy emission 4), the egress port rig would reduce the cost by 15% of the 20% cost remaining. So it would be reduced from 20% cost to 17% cost. At that point, you would be much better served with a capacitor control circuit rig.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

GreenSeed
#9 - 2012-06-14 05:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
Kosetzu wrote:
I was wondering it is a must to get Energy Emission and Shield Emission to 5 to fly a Basilisk, or if people just leave them at 4? Is it a MUST to get these to 5 or are they like Logistics 5, something which is good to have but not crucial?



stopped reading right there.


no idea who told you logiV isnt crucial... he either wants you to be bad, or he is bad himself and doenst know it yet.

looking at a simple basi fit with 5Large reps + 1 regard, i change logistics to IV and it goes from stable at a safe 67%, down to 45secs running time...


your problem is you low logistics level, get logi V, or else you arent a logi pilot, specially when flying a capchain logi.


i can see a pvp oneiros/scimi with logistics to IV, MAYBE a pve oneiros/scimi that drops tracking links for cap rechargers... but a basi with logi to lvl4 is dead weight. thats 15% less cap usage on your reps, and 15% less cap usage on your power link.

go train it please, youll see how easy it is to fit logistics with that skill to V. Blink
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#10 - 2012-06-14 17:00:12 UTC
I guess the above posts clear it up nicely =)

What I meant by "not crucial" with Logi 5 is that you can make it "work" with the 4/2 setup, never said it was anything near optimal.

As for the energy emission skill, sure it's a must to have it trained up at least 4, only thing I was wondering was if it was worth getting it to 5 when you already have logi skill giving bonuses to your cap usage as well.

It was more of a "when do I get this to 5? Now, or once I've started flying the ship? I don't want to screw people over if it is required that everyone has it at 5.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#11 - 2012-06-14 19:50:17 UTC
Logi 5 + scimitar (plus other decent support skills) = Cap stable with no transfers Smile

Good for small gangs.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#12 - 2012-06-15 01:13:44 UTC
having the energy emission and shield/armour emission to 4 is good enough for quite some time in my humble opinion. I flown my basi tons and i still haven't taken them to 5 (will in.. eh.. 2 months i think.. don't have my plan handy). But do get that logi to 5 the difference is just sooooo big it isn't even funny.