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Question on Skilling Missiles

Author
Bree Okanata
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-06-10 19:13:34 UTC
I just got back into the game so I need some advice on skills.

I am hoping to shift over to level II missions (and higher as soon as I can), and thus I am working towards getting a Drake. For weapons, should I focus on getting Heavy missile skills up, or should I work on getting T2 Light missiles instead? I don't want to waste nine days on Light Missile V if I am going to shift away to Heavy Missiles.

More or less my question is when do Heavy Missiles (and higher) become useful in missions? Level II? III?
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#2 - 2012-06-10 20:00:55 UTC
Drake is the key word here. You want Heavies for the Drake, and if that's your immediate goal, then focus on Heavies.

If you want a bit longer to think on it, train suport skills while you wait. They are just as important as the missile itself.
Orlacc
#3 - 2012-06-10 20:33:56 UTC
Heavies for a Drake. Heavies come into play in Level 2s, but you may need to use light drones fro in-close frigs. So yes, start training heavies with all other missile skills as well as shield skills.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2012-06-10 22:29:04 UTC
Bree Okanata wrote:
missions? Level II? III?


Expected progression for a T1 Caldari Missile Pilot in missions would be something like that below. Note that Kestrels are not very good for L2 missions, and as there is no destroyer option, you should get into a Caracal as soon as possible. You can chose to skip the Raven and use a Drake for level 4s.

Level 1 missions: Kestrel (Light Missiles)
Level 2 missions: Kestrel -> Caracal (Light Missiles or Heavy Missiles)
Level 3 missions: Caracal -> Drake (Heavy Missiles)
Level 4 missions: Drake -> Raven (Cruise Missiles)

In the long run, Caldari Missile pilots will generally use one (or all) of the following ships for level 4 missions:
Drake (Heavy Missiles) - Slow, has drones but it works and you can use the easy-mode tank. Kinetic only damage bonus.
Tengu (Heavy Missiles) - Fast, no drones, so frigs can be an issue. Kinetic only damage bonus.
Nighthawk (Heavy Missiles) - Medium-fast, has drones. Solid ship, lower DPS than Tengu, but more tank and still relatively agile.
Raven Navy Issue (Cruise Missiles) - Fast, has drones. Solid ship, good DPS and 'enough' tank to run any level 4. About the same mission speed as a Tengu on kinetic missions, better in all others.
Golem (Torpedoes) - Fast, has drones. Very high micromanagement. Target Painters are a requirement on this ship, and they require a lot of effort to manage.
Scorpion Navy Issue (Cruise Missiles) - Medium, has drones. Low damage, and over-tanked. This is effectively an over-priced Raven. It has the same damage, and a standard Raven has enough tank for all the level 4s anyway. Good for semi-AFK missioning... if you're planning on being at the computer though, don't bother.

I own all of the ships above except the Golem, which I don't have the skills for, and the Scorpion NI... which I had and then sold because it was frankly rubbish for my play style. Your mileage may vary.
Bree Okanata
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-06-10 23:05:57 UTC
Thanks! For the drones, what skills should I train? I am used to just blasting missiles at things, and it's been a while since I have trained or used drones.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2012-06-11 01:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Paikis wrote:
Level 1 missions: Kestrel (Light Missiles)
Level 2 missions: Kestrel -> Caracal (Light Missiles or Heavy Missiles)
Level 3 missions: Caracal -> Drake (Heavy Missiles)
Level 4 missions: Drake -> Raven (Cruise Missiles)

Almost....

Level 2: Caracal with Assault Missile Launchers (light)

Level 1 + 2 missions are mostly frigates. Heavies are poor vs. frigates, compared to AML which tear them apart.

As for drones, aim for Hobgoblin II to start.
Marsan
#7 - 2012-06-11 02:02:24 UTC
Before you think of raising any missile skill above 4 consider raising the following to at least 3 if not 4:
Missile Bombardment - 10% increase in all missiles' maximum flight time per level
Missile Projection - 10% increase to all missiles' maximum velocity per level
Rapid Launch - 3% reduction on all missile launchers' rate of fire per level
Target Navigation Prediction - 10% decrease in factor of target's velocity for all missiles per level
Warhead Upgrades - 2% bonus to all missile damage per level
Weapon Upgrades- reduce the CPU requirements of a turret* by 5% per level.

* Works for missile launchers too, and cpu is a big fitting issue for missiles.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-06-11 09:31:38 UTC
Marsan wrote:
Before you think of raising any missile skill above 4 consider raising the following to at least 3 if not 4:
Missile Bombardment - 10% increase in all missiles' maximum flight time per level
Missile Projection - 10% increase to all missiles' maximum velocity per level
Rapid Launch - 3% reduction on all missile launchers' rate of fire per level
Target Navigation Prediction - 10% decrease in factor of target's velocity for all missiles per level
Warhead Upgrades - 2% bonus to all missile damage per level
Weapon Upgrades- reduce the CPU requirements of a turret* by 5% per level.

* Works for missile launchers too, and cpu is a big fitting issue for missiles.



This ^

Support skills apply to ALL missiles. You'll do far more DPS with T1 launchers and good support skills than T2 launchers and poor support skills.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-06-11 10:33:45 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Bree Okanata wrote:
missions? Level II? III?


Scorpion Navy Issue (Cruise Missiles) - Medium, has drones. Low damage, and over-tanked. This is effectively an over-priced Raven. It has the same damage, and a standard Raven has enough tank for all the level 4s anyway. Good for semi-AFK missioning... if you're planning on being at the computer though, don't bother.




Politely disagree with you there.

The SNI does al lot of missions faster and with a higher damage avarage than a CNR.

Because of the resistance bonus and the 8 midslots, the SNI can focus his rigs completly on damage.
true you lack one launcher, but have the midslots to put in several TP's wich will severly help you with all enemies smaler than BS.

It has power grid, cpu and cap enough to put in 2 TP (Take republics, not that expensive when you're able to aford a SNI) AB, Cap booster Shield booster booster amplifier and 2 hardners.


Leaves you only lower in the damage dealing with to BS in comparisation with a CNR, if you're good with drones you could bring sentries and you do more damage than a CNR, though you need to use rigs and skill to minimize the exlosion radius along with target painters.


Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#10 - 2012-06-11 11:28:02 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
The SNI does a lot of missions faster and with a higher damage average than a CNR.


The only time a SNI does missions faster than a CNR is when your CNR is fail-fit.

3 rigors, 1 (or 2) target painters, same number of drones, and an extra launcher. Enough tank for every l4 mission, and more DPS than a SNI, which in turn means you need less tank.

You can disagree if you like, but you are objectively wrong. You simply cannot make the SNI do more applied damage than a CNR that is properly fitted. It is mathematically impossible.

Now I'm not saying that people who want to take things slowly and have a larger safety net wont like the SNI more. That's fine. But for straight up blitzing, the CNR will beat the SNi every time barring a crap fit.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-06-12 11:59:43 UTC
When you spend an excetional amound of ISK more on the CNR than on the SNI, you'll get a higher DPS.

The SNI can come very close with a fraction of the ISK.

For the CNR to be able to carry 2 TP's you need Ded space modules, a SNI can do that cheaper.

If you use midslots for TP's you can use a rig for Ejection bay, bececause of the double or tripple TP if you realy want, because of this you can use bigger more dps drones as well.

Use enough ISK and you'll DPS will probably be bigger, but at what cost and "Risk".

I consider the CNR more usefull with Torps, with Cruise missiles I consider the DPS difference with the SNI to troublesome and to expansive.

As for the OP that wants a replacement for his Drake, I'd get a SNI and keep upgrading it (all the mods can be used on the CNR as well) untill it actualy matters to make the step.


P.S. The Scorpion looks better as well :)
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#12 - 2012-06-12 12:23:54 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
I consider the CNR more usefull with Torps


Not sure if trolling or just stupid. /thread
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#13 - 2012-06-12 18:20:13 UTC
For what it is worth, I use this fit. It is basically the standard Liang fit, but with faction launchers. I use T1 missiles, so I don't have to bother with a target painter (required for T2 fury).

When solo I use the long range to my advantage and keep at 105 km until the room is half clear, then approach the gate so I arrive at it as the last NPC pops. At 105 km, no NPC can hit you, so I can even turn the hardeners off.

I carry 15 cap charges (= 3 reloads + plus 5 in the module) and the rest missiles. This typically lasts 4-6 missions, though I usually have to add missiles or change missile damage type. I make my own cap charges from reprocessed mission trash (easier to move the minerals and BPO around). It requires Industry 1 skill.

It is still one of my favourite ships, even though I own a Tengu (several actually).

[Raven Navy Issue, Current]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II

Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster

Small Tractor Beam I
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5
Bree Okanata
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-06-12 21:27:37 UTC
Thanks all. I am still about 60m Short of affording a Drake, but you guys got me ideas for when I get to that point. :P
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-06-13 01:08:27 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
For what it is worth, I use this fit. It is basically the standard Liang fit, but with faction launchers. I use T1 missiles, so I don't have to bother with a target painter (required for T2 fury).

When solo I use the long range to my advantage and keep at 105 km until the room is half clear, then approach the gate so I arrive at it as the last NPC pops. At 105 km, no NPC can hit you, so I can even turn the hardeners off.

I carry 15 cap charges (= 3 reloads + plus 5 in the module) and the rest missiles. This typically lasts 4-6 missions, though I usually have to add missiles or change missile damage type. I make my own cap charges from reprocessed mission trash (easier to move the minerals and BPO around). It requires Industry 1 skill.

It is still one of my favourite ships, even though I own a Tengu (several actually).

[Raven Navy Issue, Current]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II

Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster

Small Tractor Beam I
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5


I kind of like this fit! Do you have any issues with missions that drop you close in to the rats or does the AB get you out fast enough?

Will it work with T2 launchers?

You would get a little more DPS and be less of a gank target. Of course I'm not sure if there is enough power grid since I'm not on my computer and can't check on EFT.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-06-13 01:18:00 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
I consider the CNR more usefull with Torps


Not sure if trolling or just stupid. /thread


Yeah not sure why anyone would put torps on a Raven for PVE. With torps you would be better served with a Golem.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#17 - 2012-06-13 05:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
IIshira wrote:
I kind of like this fit! Do you have any issues with missions that drop you close in to the rats or does the AB get you out fast enough?

Think of it as a bigger and slower Kestrel.

On warp-in I immediately start moving away. If I get agro from the initial group, I drag them with me. Typically this is the only time I take damage and need to use the shield + cap booster. I clear out the group, and start sniping while keeping moving. Webbers are a priority target.

The AB reduces damage from all ships, plus you can outrun non-angel NPC BC + BS.

Destroyers are one volley. Battlecruisers are 2 volleys. I start with cruisers and frigs, as BS and BC are so slow as to not be a threat. More correctly, I pick a range and anything that crosses that becomes a priority target. At such long range, frigs MWD to you, making themselves big targets. If anything gets into drone range, well, let the drones deal with it.

You can pull and trigger an entire room if you have enough range. I recommend building-up to that, as it takes experience.

IIshira wrote:
Will it work with T2 launchers?

Yes.

T1 missiles work well on the smaller ships though, and are cheap.

IIshira wrote:
You would get a little more DPS and be less of a gank target. Of course I'm not sure if there is enough power grid since I'm not on my computer and can't check on EFT.

I'm not worried about being a gank target. I actually watch dscan while doing missions, and I'm FAR from the warp-in beacon. I also have a Noctis on a second account salvaging the previous room, so I can see incoming.

I did lose one when I disconnected though (I had pulled the whole room too). I bought a shuttle, headed to Jita, bought another fitted the same, and used it to get to my wreck. Only one I've lost in years.

Don't pilot what you can't afford to lose!
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-06-13 07:13:02 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
I consider the CNR more usefull with Torps


Not sure if trolling or just stupid. /thread



Although it sounded better when I was setting this up, I´m going through with the how and why.

Ofcourse a CNR isn´t a torp ship, thing is from a whole bunch of text, you only react to that line.

a common feat among EVE players, not unlie the following.

Of an entire ship the only thing people tent to look at is DPS, while looking at kill lists already shows that a relative low DPS dealer is the ship that does the most kills. Few ships are feared more than the Falcon, not because of it´s damage.

Raw DPS is fine, but don´t underestimate secondary damage dealing, ships speed, and indirect damage enhancing.

You where disgarding the SNI because you can fit a CNR that does more damage, while in fact that fit buys you 2 SNI´s that do only slightly less damage if propper fit.

Also forgetting that although most of the modules can or will be the same on both ships the way to use them is rather different.




Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#19 - 2012-06-13 17:28:43 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Ofcourse a CNR isn´t a torp ship, thing is from a whole bunch of text, you only react to that line.

Glad we agree. I dismissed the rest of your post because I figured you were trolling.

Fine, I'm bored, so let's do this thing.

Mike Whiite wrote:
Of an entire ship the only thing people tent to look at is DPS, while looking at kill lists already shows that a relative low DPS dealer is the ship that does the most kills. Few ships are feared more than the Falcon, not because of it´s damage.

Where to start...
1. You're conflating PvP fits with mission fits.
2. Because of Falcon... has nothing to do with mission running.
3. In a mission, you need enough tank to not die. Once you have that, the ONLY thing that matters is killing speed. Ergo; DPS.
4. Showing that the Drake has the most total kills in PvP, in no way makes the SNI any better (or worse as a mission ship.

Mike Whiite wrote:
Raw DPS is fine, but don´t underestimate secondary damage dealing, ships speed, and indirect damage enhancing.

For missions, raw DPS really is the only thing that matters once you're not dieing. To address your points though...
1. Secondary damage dealing... like drones? Because the CNR has the same number, AND has an extra low to fit a drone damage mod.
2. Ship speed. Irrelevant because I can hit everything in this mission from the warp-in point. If speed becomes an issue I have a Tengu ready to go.
3. Indirect damage... like where you hack the NPC ship computers and fly them into each other?

Mike Whiite wrote:
You where disgarding the SNI because you can fit a CNR that does more damage, while in fact that fit buys you 2 SNI´s that do only slightly less damage if propper fit.

Yup, the CNR is more expensive than a SNI. Agreed. It's also better in every way except tank, and no one cares once you're not dieing.

Mike Whiite wrote:
Also forgetting that although most of the modules can or will be the same on both ships the way to use them is rather different.

How is it different? What could you possibly do other than warp in, lock target, TPs on, cruise missiles away and set your drones on frigates?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-06-14 00:19:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think you should meticulously train all of the tech 1 skills you'll ever use on that drake before you work on any tech 2, and go for the faster-training tech 2 skills first as well. You don't yet know whether you'll prefer heavy missiles or heavy assault missiles, and training one to tech 2 only to find you like the other better is a large waste of SP. Just remember, there's nothing wrong with flying tech 1. It's completely viable. What is not viable is an improperly fit ship or a ship with holes in the fit, no matter how many tech 2, faction, or officer modules you have on it.

Most important things for a drake are (in approximate order of importance):
  • Heavy Missile
  • Heavy Assault Missile
  • Shield Hardener
  • Shield Extender
  • Damage Control
  • Afterburner
  • Shield Power Relay and/or Shield Flux Coil
  • Ballistic Control System
  • Target Painter
  • Stasis Webifier
  • MicroWarpdrive
  • Power Diagnostic Unit
  • Shield Booster
  • Shield Rig
  • Scout Drone
  • Capacitor Booster
  • Reactor Control
  • Missile Launcher Rig
  • All of these things are likely to become useful to a drake pilot at some point, especially if you play around with your fitting options and try to use your drake for multiple roles.

    [edit]
    P.S.: That target painter will prove immensely useful for running missions in a drake. Your medium-sized missiles will do greatly reduced damage to frigates, much less than small missiles would. Target painters and stasis webifiers will increase the damage dealt to the small targets. You can also use drones to hit frigates, but using a combination of both is often necessary to kill level 3 mission interceptors, especially when you still have poor offense skills. Even just 1 painter or 1 web makes a huge difference, and 1 of each is just incredible.

    [edit 2]
    Missed one thing: Level 2 missions have a few cruisers but mostly frigates and destroyers. If you use a drake in level 2 missions, I suggest you fit it with rapid light missile launchers. They'll easily be able to take out the weak level 2 mission cruisers and will be excellent for the hordes of frigs.
    You could do level 2 missions alright in a caracal--a drake will suffice for level 3s but you need to have a complete tech 1 fit to tank them well enough. Level 3 missions have mostly cruisers and battlecruisers, with a handful of weak battleships. There will be a few frigates which sometimes have hefty tank, so while cruiser weapons are recommended you want a target painter or webifier as well.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."