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[Proposal] Defensive Plexing in Faction Warfare

Author
Damen Apol
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1 - 2012-06-10 04:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Damen Apol
Currently the state of Faction Warfare from what I have noticed is largely one mad offensive dash with little to no defense being played. The reason for this is simple, offensive plexes reward LP, defensive plexes give no direct benefit.

It's quite understandable that defensive plexes give no benefit, for farming purposes, but I have two ideas about how to perhaps combat the mad offensive dash that I perceive Faction Warfare to be.

1. Reward Defensive plexing a fraction of the amount that an offensive plex would give based on the percentage contested.

For example, assume a small plex rewards 15k LP if run offensively. Running a small plex defensively in a system that is 0% contested would award 0 LP. Running a small plex defensively in a system that is 50% contested would award 7.5k LP. This would promote defense in more popular systems and would likely lead to more PvP.

2. Break up Faction Warfare in general into pieces. As is the entire set of contested systems are open for attacking and defending. Perhaps if only a set amount of systems were available for attack/defense at any given time based on the progress of either side. So the warfare would progress a bit more logically, albeit in a much more controlled way, and I would personally prefer solution 1.

Visual reference for 2.

http://i.imgur.com/o85Et.png
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-06-10 19:03:12 UTC
I support Solution 1, it really solves the source of many problems with FW.

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Ayame Yoshida
Republic 1st Fleet
#3 - 2012-06-10 19:09:19 UTC
Point 1 would go some way to encouraging defensive plexing. There have been a number of good ideas to encourage defensive plexing, some of which included the idea of paying a % of LP directly to infrastructure of the system the plex is in. Some combination of that and what you suggest would seem ideal to me.

Could you clarify point 2 a little? Do you mean you would only be allowed to contest x amount of systems at once? or contest systems adjacent to a system you already control? Based on progress meaning you can contest more when winning or when losing?

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Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#4 - 2012-06-10 20:23:09 UTC
There is currently no point in defensive plexing. Nobody does it (not counting defense fleets) and there's a reason for it, which has nothing to do with whether or not the system is at 3% or 93% contested. Most people that are plexing are just doing it for the LP farming, even despite the lack of speedtanking, and without any legitimate payout they typically avoid defensive plexing like a plague. But the other main reason is simple carebearism, in that your defensively plexing systems that are currently under attack from the opposing militia, ie lots of WT's. Usually this means it's a hairy proposition for the defensive plexers, which roots out the more casual LP farmer (which, considering how much ISK speedtanking sites makes, for how little opposition there is...isn't suprising) and thus leaves the aggressor with a target-free system to just grind down till they flip it.

There is a balance in there somewhere, but I do think rewarding defensive plexing with fractional LP payouts would help in making it a more viable strategy. As it is, it's far more profitable to let systems flip, just to flip them back while snagging millions in LP. This makes it a frustrating war for Amarr, despite the enjoyment to be had from all the cheep pvp.

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Damen Apol
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#5 - 2012-06-11 02:17:24 UTC
Ayame Yoshida wrote:
Could you clarify point 2 a little? Do you mean you would only be allowed to contest x amount of systems at once? or contest systems adjacent to a system you already control? Based on progress meaning you can contest more when winning or when losing?



I have drawn an INCREDIBLY crude picture designed to represent the idea.

http://i.imgur.com/o85Et.png

So each section would only be available for conquest/defense once the previous section had been completely conquered.
Damen Apol
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#6 - 2012-06-11 02:18:53 UTC
Akai Kvaesir wrote:
There is currently no point in defensive plexing. Nobody does it (not counting defense fleets) and there's a reason for it, which has nothing to do with whether or not the system is at 3% or 93% contested. Most people that are plexing are just doing it for the LP farming, even despite the lack of speedtanking, and without any legitimate payout they typically avoid defensive plexing like a plague. But the other main reason is simple carebearism, in that your defensively plexing systems that are currently under attack from the opposing militia, ie lots of WT's. Usually this means it's a hairy proposition for the defensive plexers, which roots out the more casual LP farmer (which, considering how much ISK speedtanking sites makes, for how little opposition there is...isn't suprising) and thus leaves the aggressor with a target-free system to just grind down till they flip it.



I think by rewarding defensive plexing, this will also help solve the issue of solo offensive plexing simply because there will be more defenders in a more contested system. Sure this will encourage the people who really want to solo plex to go to uncontested systems, but eventually an equilibrium will be reached.
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-06-11 02:18:56 UTC
Damen Apol wrote:
Ayame Yoshida wrote:
Could you clarify point 2 a little? Do you mean you would only be allowed to contest x amount of systems at once? or contest systems adjacent to a system you already control? Based on progress meaning you can contest more when winning or when losing?



I have drawn an INCREDIBLY crude picture designed to represent the idea.

http://i.imgur.com/o85Et.png

So each section would only be available for conquest/defense once the previous section had been completely conquered.


I giggled when I read "INCREDIBLY" but the picture works very well in accordion to your explanation. This makes a lot more sense now that we have a visual on how it would work.

.

Lexmana
#8 - 2012-06-11 07:13:37 UTC
I like the idea of LP based on % contested. It makes sense both from game mechanics and RP point of view. But I can't support your idea of warzones. Let the militias decide what systems they think they can take (and defend).
Damen Apol
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#9 - 2012-06-12 00:49:19 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
I like the idea of LP based on % contested. It makes sense both from game mechanics and RP point of view. But I can't support your idea of warzones. Let the militias decide what systems they think they can take (and defend).


Yea, I definitely prefer solution 1, having that sort of rigid control inside a game as free as EVE would feel weird.
Sun Win
#10 - 2012-06-12 12:52:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sun Win
Option 3: Find a mechanism for defending the system that doesn't involve orbiting a button AFK for 15 minutes . At least when offensive plexing there are rats to tank/shoot.

The problem is that capturing and defending systems is tedious. If we have to orbit a thing to change vulnerability, give more system % per outpost and reduce the spawn rate of outposts to compensate (I know that the devs want systems to take ~35 hours to flip).

It would be better if we had a capture mechanism that was more interesting.
Damen Apol
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#11 - 2012-06-12 20:17:19 UTC
Sun Win wrote:
Option 3: Find a mechanism for defending the system that doesn't involve orbiting a button AFK for 15 minutes . At least when offensive plexing there are rats to tank/shoot.

The problem is that capturing and defending systems is tedious. If we have to orbit a thing to change vulnerability, give more system % per outpost and reduce the spawn rate of outposts to compensate (I know that the devs want systems to take ~35 hours to flip).

It would be better if we had a capture mechanism that was more interesting.


With Mechanism 1, you would be more likely to be defensively plexing in a highly contested system, meaning a MUCH greater chance of having some PvP going on.
Corniel Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-06-13 01:22:28 UTC
The idea only makes sense, if a system is not contested why go defend it, if a system IS contested than the troops should thus be rewarded for their work.


+Like
Sun Win
#13 - 2012-06-13 06:00:55 UTC
Damen Apol wrote:
With Mechanism 1, you would be more likely to be defensively plexing in a highly contested system, meaning a MUCH greater chance of having some PvP going on.


Your proposal doesn't make capturing mechanisms any more interesting, we're still orbiting a thing.

Maybe means more fights. Maybe.

Or maybe it means smart players find some other ways plex, that still avoid fights. For example, maybe they'd farm two systems in a frigate and bound back and forth leading an opposing fleet on a merry chase (more likely the fleet wouldn't bother, really because a single frigate is a tedious target to hunt). Maybe they just log on when it's not the other team's peak and plex in peace for extra LP.

The problem with capturing systems isn't a lack of LP. And so far we don't lack for PvP. The problem is that orbiting a thing is tedious as all hell and you need to do it for like 35 hours to make a difference.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#14 - 2012-06-13 18:40:12 UTC
+1 I would like my no-skill afk defensive plexing alt to receive the same rewards as my main in a pvp-fit ship.

James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#15 - 2012-06-14 08:27:42 UTC
First point good, of course.

Second point, interesting. I see you've chopped it into "zones" of fighting, but that seems slightly rigid. What if to flip a system, it had to have a stargate to a system already controlled. This would give much more strategic importance to a few choke systems, and introduce the idea of making a push behind enemy lines.

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http://csm8.org

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-06-15 23:59:34 UTC
problem: wouldn't people just juggle the contested % back and forth to score extra LPs?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-06-16 00:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Private Pineapple
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
problem: wouldn't people just juggle the contested % back and forth to score extra LPs?


Anything in FW, now or later, will be abuse-able by the 'X-factor' thing as I think it is called. Basically a person on Amarr and another on Minmatar can coordinate and make massive amounts of LP. This is possible now and it'll be possible later unless some serious restrictions are put in.

.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-06-17 08:12:12 UTC
perhaps rather than try to thwart such actions, it would be more productive to make the LP gain from such action similar to what would be gotten from just grinding. For example: cause both sides to gain LP based on how heavily they do combat--damage dealt gives some LPs but scoring kills gives more, and causing ISK damage gives the most.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
#19 - 2012-06-17 22:05:39 UTC
I somewhat agree with Option 1, though I believe that it should be based off of how contested the PLEX is, not the system.

The reason I say this is because I have come across several Plexes in uncontested systems that have a WT in them, I go in, the WT flees and then I get to orbit a button to close the plex which yields NO reward. If a Minor gets run down to 10s left on the button and then the WT leaves it, I still need to close that plex to lessen the chance that that system will become contested.

Now I am not saying that the reward for orbiting defensively should be the same as offensively. However, I do believe that there should be some form of reward, perhaps 1/4 the value of Offensive plexing.

If the plex was opened by a member of the non-sov holding militia, then that plex should pay out a reward if closed either way, whether the attacker finishes it or a defender comes along and closes it.
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-06-17 23:45:08 UTC
Alaekessa wrote:
I somewhat agree with Option 1, though I believe that it should be based off of how contested the PLEX is, not the system.

The reason I say this is because I have come across several Plexes in uncontested systems that have a WT in them, I go in, the WT flees and then I get to orbit a button to close the plex which yields NO reward. If a Minor gets run down to 10s left on the button and then the WT leaves it, I still need to close that plex to lessen the chance that that system will become contested.

Now I am not saying that the reward for orbiting defensively should be the same as offensively. However, I do believe that there should be some form of reward, perhaps 1/4 the value of Offensive plexing.

If the plex was opened by a member of the non-sov holding militia, then that plex should pay out a reward if closed either way, whether the attacker finishes it or a defender comes along and closes it.


Actually I agree with this. If it were based off how contested the plex is, it would be very abuse-able as people with alts could come in and shortly contest a plex and then you could just def-plex it for LP. This would actually lead to even more of a problem than current-day offensive plexing. If it were based off how contested the PLEX is then it would work out and would not be abuse-able by an alt.

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