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HiSec Miners - Sponsoring Risk Aversion
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#141 - 2012-06-09 23:24:21 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
I think someone might be mad.


Not at all, not my fault you and others don't get why stuff happens in a certain way.

If they wanted to do what you say, there's hundreds of pages, fittings and whatever.
Alas they don't.

It's in their rights to not play if their playstyle is over, deal with it.

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Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2012-06-09 23:25:48 UTC
Also, they clearly can't do it AFK, Vera. Or there wouldn't be 10000000 whine threads complaining about that very thing.

Again: Reality check.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#143 - 2012-06-09 23:26:50 UTC
Disregard That wrote:


Do they have any basis in reality whatsoever to think that they could perpetrate such an obviously unbalanced activity in naked space?

Do we have a lot of ships in Eve that can hold up to an offensive while the pilot is AFK?

Do supercarrier and titan pilots get such considerations too?

Jesus, this post is a total nightmare for the positions of high-sec miners everywhere.

You basically concede that they want to mine AFK risk-free.

How could you do such a disservice to the community?



I don't care neither about what they will end up doing, nor about what you believe is the way they should play.

I put in simple, written text why they won't EVER bother following your advice.
That's it. I don't have to agree or disagree, like I don't have to agree or disagree if sky should be blue or not. It's just blue.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#144 - 2012-06-09 23:27:59 UTC
Disregard That wrote:
Also, they clearly can't do it AFK, Vera. Or there wouldn't be 10000000 whine threads complaining about that very thing.

Again: Reality check.


It's the same 10 idiots creating their sh!tty thread that could be ignored and go to page 50 in 2 hours.

You choose to perma bump their threads or create new ones blowing this little fart into a world war affair.

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Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2012-06-09 23:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Disregard That
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:


Do they have any basis in reality whatsoever to think that they could perpetrate such an obviously unbalanced activity in naked space?

Do we have a lot of ships in Eve that can hold up to an offensive while the pilot is AFK?

Do supercarrier and titan pilots get such considerations too?

Jesus, this post is a total nightmare for the positions of high-sec miners everywhere.

You basically concede that they want to mine AFK risk-free.

How could you do such a disservice to the community?



I don't care neither about what they will end up doing, nor about what you believe is the way they should play.

I put in simple, written text why they won't EVER bother following your advice.
That's it. I don't have to agree or disagree, like I don't have to agree or disagree if sky should be blue or not. It's just blue.

You're at least partially right.

Except that the sky is not a sentient being, it's a collection of physical phenomena resultant from photon interactions with elements in the earth's atmosphere.

And miners are (supposed to be) played by intelligent human beings capable of adaptation.

Yet you try to talk to me about reality as though it's absolute.

Mining in high-sec can be accomplished if people learn.

The sky cannot learn, Vera.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#146 - 2012-06-09 23:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Disregard That wrote:

And miners are (supposed to be) played by intelligent human beings capable of adaptation.

Yet you try to talk to me about reality as though it's absolute.

Mining in high-sec can be accomplished if people learn.

The sky cannot learn, Vera.


Please re-read the post above.

They AFK mine BECAUSE and ONLY because it's completely, utterly AFK.

Remove the AFK and they stop mining. That's is their "adaptation".

If you tell people to adapt by having to micro manage and / or use D-SCAn and / or put a tank that makes them unable to AFK for 15 minutes at a time, then you'll achieve a fat zero.

The "AFK for 15 minutes at a time" (more for ice mining) is THE ONE reason why they mine. That's why they won't adapt, you want to remove the single reason they do it.

They are not mining because it's fun.
They are not mining because it's profitable and getting more profitable.
They are mining because it's 15 minutes of pure AFK-dom.

Remove AFK-dom and they adapt indeed, by switching to the next path of least resistance that lets them AFK.

I am amazed it's so hard to get this basic concept.

TLDR: AFK or die.

You make them not AFK they quit EvE or switch to PI or whatever stupid there is in EvE.

Edit:

And of course, the first path of least resistance is to go post on the forums to have the game changed to suit AFK again.


Path of least resistance and pure AFK, these are the keywords driving the massive majority of them.

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Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2012-06-09 23:39:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Disregard That
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:

And miners are (supposed to be) played by intelligent human beings capable of adaptation.

Yet you try to talk to me about reality as though it's absolute.

Mining in high-sec can be accomplished if people learn.

The sky cannot learn, Vera.


Please re-read the post above.

They AFK mine BECAUSE and ONLY because it's completely, utterly AFK.

Remove the AFK and they stop mining. That's is their "adaptation".

If you tell people to adapt by having to micro manage and / or use D-SCAn and / or put a tank that makes them unable to AFK for 15 minutes at a time, then you'll achieve a fat zero.

The "AFK for 15 minutes at a time" (more for ice mining) is THE ONE reason why they mine. That's why they won't adapt, you want to remove the single reason they do it.

They are not mining because it's fun.
They are not mining because it's profitable and getting more profitable.
They are mining because it's 15 minutes of pure AFK-dom.

Remove AFK-dom and they adapt indeed, by switching to the next path of least resistance that lets them AFK.

I am amazed it's so hard to get this basic concept.

TLDR: AFK or die.

You make them not AFK they quit EvE or switch to PI or whatever stupid there is in EvE.

So why are they complaining then, Vera? Because suicide ganking's been around since CONCORD and it isn't going anywhere.

Every other industry or profession in Eve requires the following steps:

1) Observe. See what the climate is and where the patterns are.

2) Predict. Use the climate and patterns to construct a viable business model.

3) React. When the climate and patterns shift, alter the model accordingly.

What makes high-sec miners so entitled that they expect to be immune from this very simple fact of Eve?

And no, just saying that they want to do this "AFK-only" isn't a valid answer. It doesn't fit any other career path in Eve.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#148 - 2012-06-09 23:43:59 UTC
Disregard That wrote:

What makes high-sec miners so entitled that they expect to be immune from this very simple fact of Eve?

And no, just saying that they want to do this AFK only isn't a valid answer. It doesn't fit any other career path in Eve.


They feel entitled because they can.
You can't force them, you won't pay their sub so they do exactly like they want.

Once they stop being able to do what they want the next step is to go on the forums, then the next is to switch to trading or PI etc. or quitting. In the middle of these steps there's 0.0 renter botting, which I suppose EvE will get a nice influx in the future. Nobody will kill them, nobody will report them => AFKer nirvana.

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Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2012-06-09 23:46:03 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:

What makes high-sec miners so entitled that they expect to be immune from this very simple fact of Eve?

And no, just saying that they want to do this AFK only isn't a valid answer. It doesn't fit any other career path in Eve.


They feel entitled because they can.
You can't force them, you won't pay their sub so they do exactly like they want.

Once they stop being able to do what they want the next step is to go on the forums, then the next is to switch to trading or PI etc. or quitting. In the middle of these steps there's 0.0 renter botting, which I suppose EvE will get a nice influx in the future. Nobody will kill them, nobody will report them => AFKer nirvana.

Interestingly enough all of those alternatives but one require them to be at their keyboard.

And I don't want to force them into anything, anyway. i want to encourage them to learn.

Personally, I use both positive and negative reinforcement along with very clear instructions.

Most of the time this fails. But I've already had one person "get it" today.

So it was worth the effort. That person can now pay their sub with my wisdom.

Teach a man to fish is what they say, right Vera?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#150 - 2012-06-09 23:49:49 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:


Do they have any basis in reality whatsoever to think that they could perpetrate such an obviously unbalanced activity in naked space?

Do we have a lot of ships in Eve that can hold up to an offensive while the pilot is AFK?

Do supercarrier and titan pilots get such considerations too?

Jesus, this post is a total nightmare for the positions of high-sec miners everywhere.

You basically concede that they want to mine AFK risk-free.

How could you do such a disservice to the community?



I don't care neither about what they will end up doing, nor about what you believe is the way they should play.

I put in simple, written text why they won't EVER bother following your advice.
That's it. I don't have to agree or disagree, like I don't have to agree or disagree if sky should be blue or not. It's just blue.



I agree with what you're saying about miners wanting to be able to mine totally afk. It's the same as Itty V mining.

I disagree with what I read to be your implied conclusion*: that closing those AFK accounts would be a bad thing for EvE. I'm also not sure the accounts will actually be closed. I suspect most miners have either trained their hulk pilots for collateral duties or have other toons on the account with significant training making the account worth keeping open.

I don't suffer any delusion that my suggestions will actually be followed by any significant number of miners, I just want to make it harder for the people who post this type of thread to claim there's nothing they can do to stop from being ganked.

*If that's not in fact the conclusion you draw, I apologize.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#151 - 2012-06-09 23:50:00 UTC
Disregard That wrote:


Teach a man to fish is what they say, right Vera?


There are men and there is mustiness. The latter was allowed for many years, on the unwritten "contract" that stated: "I accept the crappiest wage and the worst game mechanic EVER invented in the gaming industry since 1980, you CCP will allow me to get it AFK so I can ALT TAB work while doing it or whatever else".

Now you are drying up the spot and mustiness just leaves or dies. It won't adapt. Expect more of it popping up in the next least effort, wet corner of the sandbox.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#152 - 2012-06-09 23:52:50 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
I disagree with what I read to be your implied conclusion*: that closing those AFK accounts would be a bad thing for EvE. I'm also not sure the accounts will actually be closed. I suspect most miners have either trained their hulk pilots for collateral duties or have other toons on the account with significant training making the account worth keeping open.

I don't suffer any delusion that my suggestions will actually be followed by any significant number of miners, I just want to make it harder for the people who post this type of thread to claim there's nothing they can do to stop from being ganked.

*If that's not in fact the conclusion you draw, I apologize.


I am not a CCP stake or stock holder so I can't care the less if they lose 1, 10 or 10000 subs.
Actually it might push them to revise the two foundation (mining and trading) yet completely forgotten and ignored professions of the game.

My realistic side, however, suggests me that the changes will come late and will be as good as the Unified UI.

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Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2012-06-09 23:53:03 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:


Teach a man to fish is what they say, right Vera?


There are men and there is mustiness. The latter was allowed for many years, on the unwritten "contract" that stated: "I accept the crappiest wage and the worst game mechanic EVER invented in the gaming industry since 1980, you CCP will allow me to get it AFK so I can ALT TAB work while doing it or whatever else".

Now you are drying up the spot and mustiness just leaves or dies. It won't adapt. Expect more of it popping up in the next least effort, wet corner of the sandbox.

I'm fairly certain CCP never agreed to any such thing, written or implied.

And I especially like how you completely disregard the fact that somebody came away from this forum with more knowledge than when they arrived.

Further, you're referring to men as must.

Only bots can't adapt, and high-sec mining is bigger ISK than it used to be.

I hear it now earns more than L4's do sans salvage/LP.

That's if you aren't continually losing Hulks trying to do it wrong.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#154 - 2012-06-10 00:00:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Disregard That wrote:

I hear it now earns more than L4's do sans salvage/LP.

That's if you aren't continually losing Hulks trying to do it wrong.


You still don't get it.

The day mining will pay more than incursions, a new brand of miners might do it.
The current ones, though, were here for the AFK not for the good pay.

The perspective is: "I could make 60M per hour if I focused on it, but I prefer earning 10M per hour x 6 completely AFK hours so I can ALT TAB work / study / whatever".

Only once you drill into their mindset, then you can hope to "convert" more than one.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#155 - 2012-06-10 00:02:44 UTC
Disregard That wrote:

Only bots can't adapt, and high-sec mining is bigger ISK than it used to be.


Roll

Bots are more adaptable than most EvE players.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2012-06-10 00:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Disregard That
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:

I hear it now earns more than L4's do sans salvage/LP.

That's if you aren't continually losing Hulks trying to do it wrong.


You still don't get it.

The day mining will pay more than incursions, a new brand of miners might do it.
The current ones, though, were here for the AFK not for the good pay.

The perspective is: "I could make 60M per hour if I focused on it, but I prefer earning 10M per hour x 6 completely AFK hours so I can ALT TAB work / study / whatever".

So for miners to complain, for example, that their ships are unarmed and therefore dishonorable targets would be a poor claim.

Or for them to neglect training weapons. They don't need them, they are AFK.

Stop making excuses. People who don't like Eve can leave. I don't care. People that want to learn how to play can pay attention to what people who know what they're talking about are saying.

You seem to be straddling the divide somehow. Seems precarious to me.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#157 - 2012-06-10 00:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:

I hear it now earns more than L4's do sans salvage/LP.

That's if you aren't continually losing Hulks trying to do it wrong.


You still don't get it.

The day mining will pay more than incursions, a new brand of miners might do it.
The current ones, though, were here for the AFK not for the good pay.

The perspective is: "I could make 60M per hour if I focused on it, but I prefer earning 10M per hour x 6 completely AFK hours so I can ALT TAB work / study / whatever".

Only once you drill into their mindset, then you can hope to "convert" more than one.


And the more of the AFKers quit, the more the income will rise until it's worth ATKing it.

EDIT: This has only been true since the Drone Poo nerf. Pre-Nerf, a Carrier outmined a Hulk (in m3 of mins/hr) by a rediculous margin. Pre-Nerf, I'd be more sympathetic to the miner's cause (not much more, but more), and that's why I've always been for the Drone poo nerf, even knowing that it would hurt my wallet.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2012-06-10 00:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Disregard That
RubyPorto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:

I hear it now earns more than L4's do sans salvage/LP.

That's if you aren't continually losing Hulks trying to do it wrong.


You still don't get it.

The day mining will pay more than incursions, a new brand of miners might do it.
The current ones, though, were here for the AFK not for the good pay.

The perspective is: "I could make 60M per hour if I focused on it, but I prefer earning 10M per hour x 6 completely AFK hours so I can ALT TAB work / study / whatever".

Only once you drill into their mindset, then you can hope to "convert" more than one.


And the more of the AFKers quit, the more the income will rise until it's worth ATKing it.

THIS MAN HAS A POINT!

Edit: Also, good point about bots being more adaptable than most miners. Very good. Dig that.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#159 - 2012-06-10 00:11:35 UTC
Disregard That wrote:


Stop making excuses. People who don't like Eve can leave. I don't care. People that want to learn how to play can pay attention to what people who know what they're talking about are saying.

You seem to be straddling the divide somehow. Seems precarious to me.


I don't make excuses, I put the turd in your platter without polishing it so you can see it's a turd.

Also, I am not straddling the divide, since I cannot not earn whatever they do and however they do and whoever will remain if they leave. I trade minerals, I make exhumers, T2 mods, cargo expanders and rigs but also MLUs shields and lasers and catalysts and thrashers and tornadoes. I sell Orca BPC kits and invent logistics.

I am above the divide and looking with a "way to waste time" look both at them settling down for the lowest and at you trying to convert them to the True Faith.

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Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2012-06-10 00:14:49 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Disregard That wrote:


Stop making excuses. People who don't like Eve can leave. I don't care. People that want to learn how to play can pay attention to what people who know what they're talking about are saying.

You seem to be straddling the divide somehow. Seems precarious to me.


I don't make excuses, I put the turd in your platter without polishing it so you can see it's a turd.

Also, I am not straddling the divide, since I cannot not earn whatever they do and however they do and whoever will remain if they leave. I trade minerals, I make exhumers, T2 mods, cargo expanders and rigs but also MLUs shields and lasers and catalysts and thrashers and tornadoes. I sell Orca BPC kits and invent logistics.

I am above the divide and looking with a "way to waste time" look both at them settling down for the lowest and at you trying to convert them to the True Faith.

Which true faith is that, Verah? The one where they don't get ganked and you don't sell them as many Hulks?

Because that's what I'm trying to teach them and you seem to be talking me down for it.

Seems now we know why. I was cutting into your niche.