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Why some of us don't PVP as much as we'd like to, and what can be done to fix that.
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Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#101 - 2012-06-08 23:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonasha
Agreed, attribute implants need to go. They're of the same archaic design as the learning skills. Bump up the cost of clones if you have to. This will allow for more cool 1-5 slot implants as well (basic grade slaves and whatnot just for example), so it doesn't simplify the game. Remap is perfectly fine for training specialization.
Phinger
Trantor Mentalics
#102 - 2012-06-09 06:18:08 UTC
the OP does have a point and it goes beyond the actual lost but a more fundamental aspect of the game.

Jester Trek even touched on it. every new player who starts Eve is looking at the daunting task of trying to become competitive in the game.

I remember somewhere they use to say oh a low skill rifter pilot can get into pvp....yah and get podded just as fast. Sometime they have some hero moment but overall....outside of RvB its not pleasant. There was even a concession in I once read in EON i think where the actual becnhmark for a decent PvP player is around the 2 year mark.

So newb who join the game with low income are trying to play catch up ....they know they cant catch the 50 million SP crowd.....but to even get close they NEW PLAYERS feel that any moment that they arent maxiing their training time they are screwed.

Its easy to sit here with our 50 million plus sp to think this is about losing the implant aka as a cost it aint about cost....its about Time.....real life time.

Personally i would be happy that they dicth attributes, flatten the skills and jump clones are used for the specail implants fittings or just speedy jumping to locations.

It wouldnt penailise the senior players they already have uncatchble lead, and would make the new players far freer with getting stuck into the game....instead of hiding in hi-sec with their +5 implants in.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-06-09 06:54:17 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:

I am talking about those times when you lose a pod with implants, wake up in some distant place on a 0.0 station, there are NO IMPLANTS TO BUY ON THE MARKET, and you lose skill points because of that, because you can't just plug new ones in real fast.

and you can't just prepare 10+ implants while you have free time to not loose time because of market? Shocked

YOU ARE SO LAZY....
or stupid

i'm not sure

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-06-09 06:56:47 UTC
and yes, i fully support removing of implants, attributes and skills together! Get this old crap out of the game!

Think about newbees! THEY NEED TO WAIT 2 MONTHS TO EVEN UNDOCK IN BATTLESHIP! Shocked

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Elena Melkan
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2012-06-09 07:41:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Melkan
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Oh, I am sorry mister Goon, but my losses don't get covered by the swarm, like yours do...

Sorry if I am a little more risk averse.

That's what always happens in Eve, the big alliance super stinking rich guys only like **** that benefits them, and talk against anything that benefits the little guy with less money.

You know, these "rich people" you are talking about probably have done some work to become "rich". Of course we could live in a socialist utopia where even those who have put only little time or effort into their gameplay can become equally same as those who have invested time and effort into the game.

But I don't approve.
Herr Hammer Draken
#106 - 2012-06-09 08:03:47 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Basically you want to trivialize the clone/implants system. Death must have a meaning. HTFU.


Ok but the flip side of that coin, why is the cost so high if the reward is so low?
CCP made the hurdles extemely high to get a set of +5 implants.
Then they made the grind to get standing for a jump clone even higher.
Then they made the 24 hour turn around rule.
Ok so I have to ask. What is this high hurdle designed to protect?
Does a full set of +5 implants give a player significant advantages over someone with a set of +3 implants?
If the answer is yes then the high hurdles have a purpose.
If the answer is no then the high hurdles are a detriment to the game and serve no real game purpose.

Or is it simply that the cost to lose +5 is so much and that is the only purpose?
If that is the case then why the high grind to get standings for a jump clone?
That only serves to delay a new players entry into PvP.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
R McGunne
The Hirogens
#107 - 2012-06-09 08:06:53 UTC
Simplest solution: Remove pods completely. Remove attribute enhancement implants. Change hardwire implants to "interface modules". There is no real need to have pods or implants anyway. When your ship explodes you respawn in your home station. Same effect as getting podded, in order to satisfy the tactical reasons for podding. Add 3 x "interface" slots to every ship where you can plug in your "interface modules". Keep clone jumping, but with a 1 hour delay timer, and a "transfer charge" equal to for example 10% of current medical clone costs.
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#108 - 2012-06-09 09:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Saki
Lol? I don't even use Jump clones if I lose my pod... oh no... Wait I can buy new implants... Yay \o/

COME AT ME BRO!

I swear this is game is full whiny little girls....

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Uinuva Karma
Doomheim
#109 - 2012-06-09 09:17:02 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
A good way to make people like me get into PVP way more is to remove attribute implants from the game, and if possible the whole attribute system, all it does is cause headaches and petitions.


Wut?

How are these things even connected to each others?

You use attribute implants for SKILL TRAINING, not combat. Unless they are some pirate sets, of course.

Captain Kirk didn't stay in hisec. 
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#110 - 2012-06-09 09:59:12 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
and yes, i fully support removing of implants, attributes and skills together! Get this old crap out of the game!

Think about newbees! THEY NEED TO WAIT 2 MONTHS TO EVEN UNDOCK IN BATTLESHIP! Shocked

Not sure if you're serious or trolling (you're you after all), but I can assure you that getting into a battleship at two months of age isn't a good idea.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Uinuva Karma
Doomheim
#111 - 2012-06-09 10:07:55 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:


Yeah man, but training stuff fast is very important...

Why do I seem to be the only guy that thinks that?


Have you ever calculated the actual speed advantage you get if you wear +5s in your first your year, instead of +4s?

Correct, there is none.

Captain Kirk didn't stay in hisec. 
Bossy Lady
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#112 - 2012-06-09 10:35:26 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Basically you want to trivialize the clone/implants system. Death must have a meaning. HTFU.


Ok but the flip side of that coin, why is the cost so high if the reward is so low?
CCP made the hurdles extemely high to get a set of +5 implants.
Then they made the grind to get standing for a jump clone even higher.
Then they made the 24 hour turn around rule.
Ok so I have to ask. What is this high hurdle designed to protect?
Does a full set of +5 implants give a player significant advantages over someone with a set of +3 implants?
If the answer is yes then the high hurdles have a purpose.
If the answer is no then the high hurdles are a detriment to the game and serve no real game purpose.

Or is it simply that the cost to lose +5 is so much and that is the only purpose?
If that is the case then why the high grind to get standings for a jump clone?
That only serves to delay a new players entry into PvP.



You can train at about 97% of the speed with +4s, a pair of which cost about the same as an AF hull. There's nothing mandatory about +5s and it's straight up dishonest to try and pretend they're the only reasonable alternative.

Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#113 - 2012-06-09 10:40:04 UTC
Without implants: 357 d, 5h, 43m, 20s
With +4 implants: 301 d, 13h, 56m, 6s
With +5 implants: 290 d, 6h, 35 m, 48s

The difference between +4 and +5 seems to be about 9 days in one year.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Vlodovich
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#114 - 2012-06-09 10:44:41 UTC
I would agree that the jump clone times be reduced, except NOT for travel.

I think it should be something like 6h timer when jumping into a clone in the same constellation as you, and 24h for anything outside your constellation.

This would allow people to have implant-less clones within a couple of jumps of them that they can use every 6 hours to PvP, yet would not allow travel across the galaxy every 6 hours.

I would go even further and make universe wide jump cloning a 36 hour timer for clones outside your region, but that last bit is just my personal gripe about power projection.
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#115 - 2012-06-09 10:46:33 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Without implants: 357 d, 5h, 43m, 20s
With +4 implants: 301 d, 13h, 56m, 6s
With +5 implants: 290 d, 6h, 35 m, 48s

The difference between +4 and +5 seems to be about 9 days in one year.


So for such a small percentage of the whole year, is it really worth spending the whole year using them as an excuse for just 9 days? Sometimes when people make the claim that it's implants stopping them from pvping I wonder if that's the real reason.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#116 - 2012-06-09 10:47:54 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Virgil Travis wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Oh, and by the way, I don't mind losing an expensive ship, but losing an expensive clone and LOSING SKILL POINTS AS A RESULT, pisses me off.

Why?

Because SP, unlike ISK, can't be recovered, your character will be permanently ******** once you start losing SP.

This is especially bad on my main, who is missing 60 million SP because I had to quit Eve for a total of 2 years in increments, because RL was all over the place for a while.

So not only is my main missing a **** TON of SP, but now I have to worry about losing SP when I PVP, because in 0.0, pod death is almost unavoidable.

This causes me to not even feel like PVPing at all, for fear that i will lose even more SP.

I REPEAT.

ISK is NOT a problem, SP is, and removing attribute clones and just giving everyone +5 or just removing attributes altogether, would FIX that fear.

Also, the main reason people quit this game is because they are not having fun, because they are spending hours upon hours they would spend on having fun recovering their losses instead, SP loss and learning implant loss is a major contributor to this.

If you can't see that you are blind or stupid.

Also, not all of us buy PLEX.


do you actually play this game?


I don't think so, by the sounds of it he's playing Progress Quest. It's not the implants stopping you from doing pvp, it's you, plain and simple. Your own compulsion to maintain the top rate of training is hampering your ability to just ditch the implants for a while and go shoot and be shot. Some people believe that skill points are everything in this game, they'd be surprised to learn that player experience counts for more.


Yeah, pretty much, I guess.

But yeah, if we didn't have those damn implants or the whole attribute system for that matter, I wouldn't have to worry about that.

It's totally keeping me from wanting to properly PVP, I am ISK broke enough as it is, and unlike some people I don't agree with buying plex for isk, because then what is the point of playing the game? Might as well play on the test server.


Dont use the implants then ffs. No one is forcing you to, I Didn't use implants for the few years as I was mostly pvp and low and null back then, because I could not afford them and we had to pay for our own ship losses.

Its your choice. Why do you want everyone else to lose this option ? Is it a case of If I can't use them no one should ?

Tal


Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2012-06-09 11:15:40 UTC
Rather than removing them I'd rather CCP removed some of the restrictions on jump clones for easier storage, 8 hour cooldown instead of 24h, also lower standings required for installation.

Alternatively allow implants to be unplugged and stored, but make other characters unable to plug them in so they can't be sold on.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#118 - 2012-06-09 11:20:12 UTC
Jafit wrote:
Rather than removing them I'd rather CCP removed some of the restrictions on jump clones for easier storage, 8 hour cooldown instead of 24h, also lower standings required for installation.

Alternatively allow implants to be unplugged and stored, but make other characters unable to plug them in so they can't be sold on.



I like the idea of being able to unplug them, rigs as well, but I suppose its an ISK sink for CCP.

Tal

Uinuva Karma
Doomheim
#119 - 2012-06-09 13:09:52 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Without implants: 357 d, 5h, 43m, 20s
With +4 implants: 301 d, 13h, 56m, 6s
With +5 implants: 290 d, 6h, 35 m, 48s

The difference between +4 and +5 seems to be about 9 days in one year.


Minus the training time for Cybernetics V.

Captain Kirk didn't stay in hisec. 
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#120 - 2012-06-09 17:40:47 UTC
Jafit wrote:
Rather than removing them I'd rather CCP removed some of the restrictions on jump clones for easier storage, 8 hour cooldown instead of 24h, also lower standings required for installation.

Alternatively allow implants to be unplugged and stored, but make other characters unable to plug them in so they can't be sold on.


This is also a good idea.

Allow us to unplug implants, but make them only usable by the person who unplugged them. (Make up a lore reason like "they are custom made for the person they were installed in").