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April survey results
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Herr Hammer Draken
#121 - 2012-06-08 09:39:05 UTC
Disregard That wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
FFS, the data is easy to read. ~50% of players play solo. ~50% of people subscribed because of the player driven economy. Ergo, ~50% of the player base are bots engaged in RMT.

Once you arrive at the conclusion, you then realize that the survey results need to be normalized to exclude the RMT bots. Meaning, the 25% of the player base interested in PvP translates into 50% of the non-botting population is interested in PvP.

/qed

It also seems indicative that 75% of players don't realize they are PVP'ing when they PVE.


Yep I agree. This PvP is in most cases very onesided. The player that is scanning down the PvE player is actively PvP the PvE guy is not. He will get killed and it will be a very one sided battle. Not at all a challenge for the PvP person. Who most often has at least double or triple the SP of the PvE person. Most often the guy that is doing the PvE missions is working on becoming that
skilled PvP player with the experience and skill points. But wil he get there?
Does the PvP person consider this activity fun? They are basically picking on somebody that can not fight back. I.E. Less game experience and less skill points or almost a certain win for the more skilled player.
If the PvE person is new and gets set back too hard they are likely to end their EVE career right about at this point. Some will fight through the challenge but more often they just leave the game.
This is what CCP is working on fixing right now. The survey is proof enough that CCP is looking at this aspect of the game.
CCP also has info none of us do, they have all the reasons why people quit the game.
Where will it all lead? Time will tell. But I do think the next few years will be interesting in EVE.
I expect the game to go through quite a eve-olution. I plan on sticking it out to see what happens.

I also expect a lot of resistance to changes. I suspect not to much of that resistence will matter though as CCP is using surveys to reach the silent majority.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Ronald Ray Gun
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2012-06-08 09:48:55 UTC
There are 8000+ members in Goons so does this survey mean that 20 % of Goons play solo?

Only 2500 people filled in the survey anyway. All this proves is that lonely people are more likely to fill in surveys than people who have friends. Lol
Herr Hammer Draken
#123 - 2012-06-08 09:57:53 UTC
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
There are 8000+ members in Goons so does this survey mean that 20 % of Goons play solo?

Only 2500 people filled in the survey anyway. All this proves is that lonely people are more likely to fill in surveys than people who have friends. Lol




Perhaps, but CCP does also have some 50,000+/year exit reasons why the customer left the game. That is a lot of lost potential that has real market power. Far greater than any 8000+ active goon squad power base has. And they are using surveys now to reach out to these groups that do not post on the forums. So you should be very afraid. It is not too likely that the forum mentality will continue to have its way with the game if they ever did. Expect EVE-olution adapt or die.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Lexmana
#124 - 2012-06-08 10:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Interestingly, the survey also showed that ≤6% preferred PVE (category: other, please specify). Also, 44% liked that players can have an impact on the universe and 54% liked the player driven market.

I really don't like how they constructed the survey but it might suggest that PvP attracted more subscribers than PVE.
Sturmwolke
#125 - 2012-06-08 10:14:53 UTC
I think a lot of folks has misconceptions on what "PVP" actually is for EVE Online - including the CCP devs that made those questionaires.
Many think of PVP in EVE as a one-dimensional affair and directly compare these experiences with other games/MMO, where PVP literally means "player vs player killing".

Well, in EVE it is not.

PVP in EVE encompasses Machiavellian intrigue, market manipulation, player manipulation and wheatever else that you can think of. The list is non-exhaustive.
That alone makes EVE unique and it attracts mature audiences from all walks of life. Personally, I may not prefer to PVP in the traditional sense (aka PKing), but I do PVP in other ways.

As for the 25% figure on PVP - these should really be classified as Ship Combat.
CCP needs to understand their game better.
Yolanta Geezenstack
GWA Corp
#126 - 2012-06-08 10:22:53 UTC
Even if this survey was true and more then half of the people playing EVE like to play solo - and like every survey this definetely has to be taken with more then a grain of doubt - that doesn't necessarily means CCP has to cater to this group. You could as well argue that obviously the game has enough to attract that kind of folks and you should now concentrate on the more group/pvp-oriented folks.
Herr Hammer Draken
#127 - 2012-06-08 10:31:44 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
I think a lot of folks has misconceptions on what "PVP" actually is for EVE Online - including the CCP devs that made those questionaires.
Many think of PVP in EVE as a one-dimensional affair and directly compare these experiences with other games/MMO, where PVP literally means "player vs player killing".

Well, in EVE it is not.

PVP in EVE encompasses Machiavellian intrigue, market manipulation, player manipulation and wheatever else that you can think of. The list is non-exhaustive.
That alone makes EVE unique and it attracts mature audiences from all walks of life. Personally, I may not prefer to PVP in the traditional sense (aka PKing), but I do PVP in other ways.

As for the 25% figure on PVP - these should really be classified as Ship Combat.
CCP needs to understand their game better.


From the way the survey is worded I think CCP is using more conventional terms in its thinking.
The PvP is the ship to ship combat.
The other stuff you reference market manipulation etc that you consider PvP is refered to by the survey as the 44% of players that liked to have an impact on the universe and the 54% that liked the player driven market.

Obviously it would be better for CCP to break these activities out as seperate rather than lump them all together as PvP.
If it was all lumped together they would have difficulty making changes to the game based upon feedback that was simply PvP.
What would that mean if it included everything. So while CCP's PvP focus does not work for you it obviously works for what they need it to do and that is what counts.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Shian Yang
#128 - 2012-06-08 10:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Shian Yang
Vincent Athena wrote:
The latest eve newsletter has a link to the April survey results, also given here

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EVE_playing_behaviour?utm_source=newsletter77&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter77

Why do people start playing eve? The winners were a complex Sci Fi game with space exploration, with around 70%+ picking those.

And down at 25%? PvP.

It would appear that the survey takers were not drawn to eve by "the hard core PvP" but because its a Sci Fi game.

If CCP wants to attract more players, what should they concentrate on......


Greetings capsuleer,

Defintely not mining, walking in stations or anything industrial. Because they weren't listed on the choices in the survey, right? Besides, 2400 responses? Out of 400,000+ accounts? Give me a break.

Regards,

Shian Yang
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2012-06-08 10:47:18 UTC
I'm all for considering market a pvp activity, but I think we all know what the sruvey is talking about when it says "pvp", so no need to be nitpick there, it just would make the survey harder.
Herr Hammer Draken
#130 - 2012-06-08 10:51:35 UTC
Shian Yang wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
The latest eve newsletter has a link to the April survey results, also given here

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EVE_playing_behaviour?utm_source=newsletter77&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter77

Why do people start playing eve? The winners were a complex Sci Fi game with space exploration, with around 70%+ picking those.

And down at 25%? PvP.

It would appear that the survey takers were not drawn to eve by "the hard core PvP" but because its a Sci Fi game.

If CCP wants to attract more players, what should they concentrate on......


Greetings capsuleer,

Defintely not mining, walking in stations or anything industrial. Because they weren't listed on the choices in the survey, right? Besides, 2400 responses? Out of 400,000+ accounts? Give me a break.

Regards,

Shian Yang


Yep and CCP did not know that they would only get 2400 responses when they made the survey.
What is important here is the fact that they did make a survey. It was an attempt to get feedback that they were not getting from the forum. That is what is important. They are working in directions that fit their needs more so than the forum user needs.
That is the take away. If anything I would expect the forum users probably had a 90% turnout for the survey so they are more fully represented than the silent majority in the survey results already.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#131 - 2012-06-08 10:52:15 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Yep I agree. This PvP is in most cases very onesided. The player that is scanning down the PvE player is actively PvP the PvE guy is not. He will get killed and it will be a very one sided battle. Not at all a challenge for the PvP person. Who most often has at least double or triple the SP of the PvE person. Most often the guy that is doing the PvE missions is working on becoming that skilled PvP player with the experience and skill points. But wil he get there?

Does the PvP person consider this activity fun? They are basically picking on somebody that can not fight back. I.E. Less game experience and less skill points or almost a certain win for the more skilled player.
If the PvE person is new and gets set back too hard they are likely to end their EVE career right about at this point. Some will fight through the challenge but more often they just leave the game.

No, he's not working on becoming that skilled PvP player, because if he was, he'd be out looking for fights instead of running missions. Stop propagating ridiculous bullshit; PvP isn't about skillpoints or money in the wallet, but about attitude. Inability to compete isn't an excuse to give superior players handicaps in an open-ended environment. I didn't learn PvP by running missions and watching my wallet blink; I learned it by devoting myself to the process. On my second day in EVE, I was flying a ****-fit tackler Atron in an empire war. That was like eight years ago.

Now, am I against people not wanting to shoot other players directly? Nah, not at all. However, I am against them trying to force the game to be changed so that they can perform their activities of choice with impunity.

Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Perhaps, but CCP does also have some 50,000+/year exit reasons why the customer left the game. That is a lot of lost potential that has real market power. Far greater than any 8000+ active goon squad power base has. And they are using surveys now to reach out to these groups that do not post on the forums. So you should be very afraid. It is not too likely that the forum mentality will continue to have its way with the game if they ever did. Expect EVE-olution adapt or die.

I find it extremely hypocritical that you expect PvPers to "adapt or die" to changes that CCP would fancy to make to the game in order to excuse the carebears from having to do the exact same thing.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Ronald Ray Gun
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2012-06-08 10:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronald Ray Gun
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
There are 8000+ members in Goons so does this survey mean that 20 % of Goons play solo?

Only 2500 people filled in the survey anyway. All this proves is that lonely people are more likely to fill in surveys than people who have friends. Lol




Perhaps, but CCP does also have some 50,000+/year exit reasons why the customer left the game. That is a lot of lost potential that has real market power. Far greater than any 8000+ active goon squad power base has. And they are using surveys now to reach out to these groups that do not post on the forums. So you should be very afraid. It is not too likely that the forum mentality will continue to have its way with the game if they ever did. Expect EVE-olution adapt or die.

I think you should be afraid because all it takes is for Goonswarm to rally all their members to fill in the next survey that is sent out. What will you do when it shows 90% of people play with others and 95% are playing Eve for PvP?
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#133 - 2012-06-08 11:00:00 UTC
Disregard That wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Goons excel in the areas you describe IMHO, but then you have a closed pool from which you recruit. You do an amazing job in retention and keeping your own people from being bored, that can't be argued. I'd just like abit of development for some of the rest of us as well, not necessarily non-goons, but PvE'ers. Some sort of lasting/rewarding content. That would do more to retain PvE centric players and potentially have them expand outward to low null for reasons of wanting to experience it for what it has to offer from that front.


I won't even argue with you. The PvE in this game is absolutely pathetic. I think isk generation should be at a decent rate that doesn't wreck the economy but that it should also be entertaining. This is at the moment not the case.

No one can honestly look me in the eye and say that ratting is fun, missions are fun, incursions are fun, or that mining is fun. You may get off on the sense of progression due to being able to fly bigger and more expensive ships: But those are pretty meager rewards. I have no problem with the idea of themepark experience in this game, provided that the themepark can be gatecrashed by people interested enough to do it.

I personally think Eve can have a healthy PvP and PvE community, but right now it's a wreck: And frankly goons are doing what they do to "Stay engaged", which is to engage someone else.

I agree with most of this.

But in Eve, PVE is PVP too.



You have to understand that for most ppl PVP = combat, don't shoot me if you dont like that or agree, but if you mention PVP, ppl see ships shooting each other. Ppl understand that markets etc are PVP as well, but the term is not used much for those activities.

Tal

Herr Hammer Draken
#134 - 2012-06-08 11:03:00 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
[quote=Herr Hammer Draken]I find it extremely hypocritical that you expect PvPers to "adapt or die" to changes that CCP would fancy to make to the game in order to excuse the carebears from having to do the exact same thing.


I have no idea what direction the game will take. But I can feel change is in the air and so can you. I can feel your resistance to it already. EVE-olution...

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Herr Hammer Draken
#135 - 2012-06-08 11:04:45 UTC
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
There are 8000+ members in Goons so does this survey mean that 20 % of Goons play solo?

Only 2500 people filled in the survey anyway. All this proves is that lonely people are more likely to fill in surveys than people who have friends. Lol




Perhaps, but CCP does also have some 50,000+/year exit reasons why the customer left the game. That is a lot of lost potential that has real market power. Far greater than any 8000+ active goon squad power base has. And they are using surveys now to reach out to these groups that do not post on the forums. So you should be very afraid. It is not too likely that the forum mentality will continue to have its way with the game if they ever did. Expect EVE-olution adapt or die.

I think you should be afraid because all it takes is for Goonswarm to rally all their members to fill in the next survey that is sent out. What will you do when it shows 90% of people play with others and 95% are playing Eve for PvP?


Like you guys didn't do that already to the best of your ability. Please scare me some more...

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2012-06-08 11:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Haha if the next expansion is for us carebears then pvp-ers will need to use their own advice and "adapt" or gtfo :D

This poll result is so very satisfying.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#137 - 2012-06-08 11:07:28 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
There are 8000+ members in Goons so does this survey mean that 20 % of Goons play solo?

Only 2500 people filled in the survey anyway. All this proves is that lonely people are more likely to fill in surveys than people who have friends. Lol




Perhaps, but CCP does also have some 50,000+/year exit reasons why the customer left the game. That is a lot of lost potential that has real market power. Far greater than any 8000+ active goon squad power base has. And they are using surveys now to reach out to these groups that do not post on the forums. So you should be very afraid. It is not too likely that the forum mentality will continue to have its way with the game if they ever did. Expect EVE-olution adapt or die.

I think you should be afraid because all it takes is for Goonswarm to rally all their members to fill in the next survey that is sent out. What will you do when it shows 90% of people play with others and 95% are playing Eve for PvP?


Like you guys didn't do that already to the best of your ability. Please scare me some more...



OMG survey blobs what next, Can you imagine sitting around for days for a survey not to turn up. Will there be posts on the forums about how the survey was to chicken fight Lol
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#138 - 2012-06-08 11:08:28 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
[quote=Herr Hammer Draken]I find it extremely hypocritical that you expect PvPers to "adapt or die" to changes that CCP would fancy to make to the game in order to excuse the carebears from having to do the exact same thing.


I have no idea what direction the game will take. But I can feel change is in the air and so can you. I can feel your resistance to it already. EVE-olution...

You will have to elaborate on that statement, because I haven't the slightest clue what you meant by it. At first glance, it seems like a bit of passive-aggressive ****-waving with a bit of strawman mixed in, but I'm willing to put first impressions aside and hear you out on this.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Ronald Ray Gun
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2012-06-08 11:19:31 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

So you should be very afraid. It is not too likely that the forum mentality will continue to have its way with the game if they ever did. Expect EVE-olution adapt or die.

I think you should be afraid because all it takes is for Goonswarm to rally all their members to fill in the next survey that is sent out. What will you do when it shows 90% of people play with others and 95% are playing Eve for PvP?[/quote]

Like you guys didn't do that already to the best of your ability. Please scare me some more...[/quote]
Dude, only 2400 people could be bothered to fill in that survey so it's clear that there was no concerted effort by anyone. There are 4 x more Goons playing Eve than people who took part in that survey. If, as you think, CCP take notice of these surveys you should be scared. How many Goons voted in the CSM and what happens to these surveys if they all decide to fill in the next one? Do you see where I'm coming from?
Ronald Ray Gun
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2012-06-08 11:20:26 UTC
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

So you should be very afraid. It is not too likely that the forum mentality will continue to have its way with the game if they ever did. Expect EVE-olution adapt or die.

I think you should be afraid because all it takes is for Goonswarm to rally all their members to fill in the next survey that is sent out. What will you do when it shows 90% of people play with others and 95% are playing Eve for PvP?


Like you guys didn't do that already to the best of your ability. Please scare me some more...[/quote]
Dude, only 2400 people could be bothered to fill in that survey so it's clear that there was no concerted effort by anyone. There are 4 x more Goons playing Eve than people who took part in that survey. If, as you think, CCP take notice of these surveys you should be scared. How many Goons voted in the CSM and what happens to these surveys if they all decide to fill in the next one? Do you see where I'm coming from?