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Account Age: 6 years, Skill Points: 1.7 mil - Here's why...
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Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#21 - 2012-06-07 15:43:37 UTC
GTFU nub
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#22 - 2012-06-07 15:45:25 UTC
University of Caille

There's your problem.
Uinuva Karma
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-06-07 15:45:25 UTC
Archaegeo Neosophy wrote:


If we are to have real freedom in Eve, there should be the freedom to imprison others, or otherwise restrict their freedoms.


I see you support the George W. Bush version of freedom.

Oh lalalala, land of the derps, home of the fail.

Captain Kirk didn't stay in hisec. 
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#24 - 2012-06-07 15:46:19 UTC
OP mentions risk reward ratio in relation to ganking. Fails to mention risk/reward ratio for mining in hisec.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#25 - 2012-06-07 16:07:07 UTC
Risk versus reward has a different meaning in Eve than one would think.

Risk - Being a complete buttwipe
Reward - Whatever you want
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-06-07 16:09:45 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Risk versus reward has a different meaning in Eve than one would think.

Risk - Being a complete buttwipe
Reward - Whatever you want

Risk versus reward has a different meaning in Uno than one would think.

Risk - Playing Draw Fours instead of Draw Twos.
Reward - Increased chance of getting to say "Uno" like it means something.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will mewl and simper over how other people play the game they happen to be losing at.

Eve is no exception to bad sportsmanship.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-06-07 16:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rath Kelbore
Archaegeo Neosophy wrote:
I keep coming back to Eve over and over, but it keep failing to hold me.

If it had, id have monster SP by now and an empire, but it just isnt working, and I want it to so bad because so many of the systems and designs are so good....but...

They still havent fixed Risk vs Reward.

Now feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but the whole reason you have gangs of Catalysts ganking Hulks in HI-Sec is because the reward (what he carries, his systems, etc) FAR outweight the risk (loss of a Cat).

The same applies to scam contracts, courier and otherwise. If you take a contract to courier something in hi-sec, and get ganked by the guy who gave it to you, you lose your collateral and he walks away minus a ship (that assumedly costs less).

This is the same problem that arises in any FFA system without adequate "deterrants" to keep the honest people honest, and make the bad people have to plan and work hard for their rewards.

Lets say if you got caught by Concord doing something illegal, instead of shooting your ship they put you in "prison" in a station for a few days/weeks/months (depending on severity), you would see hi-sec ganking drop to almost nothing. Because then, only those who could gank and escape would even try it.

Same for contracts.

In the real world, which Eve strives to emulate in their setting by giving us all this freedom, the reason people dont shoot each other all the time, or scam each other all the time, is because of the risk of loss of freedom/life as a penalty. Sure it still happens, but could you imagine how much it would if the penalty was you respawned at home, out only the gear you had when you killed someone? And no penalties for fraud/scams?

If we are to have real freedom in Eve, there should be the freedom to imprison others, or otherwise restrict their freedoms.

The loss of standing isnt enough, its too easy to recover. And the first time you gank someone in hi-sec and are caught by concord, you arent instantlly KOS in hi-sec.

So I am trying again, working on skills, enjoying the game, but beginning to feel once more the "meh" feeling due to lack of risk vs reward. If i want to be an honest pilot, the system isnt set up to support me, only to encourage gankers.

I go into lo-sec, i take my risk there, I understand that and there pvp is fine. It is hi-sec that loses us new players, and makes players like me.


I didn't read the majority of your post. But I agree with the last bit there. Hi-sec is a problem, as such, it should be removed or at least greatly reduced in size and or "security".

To your risk vs reward point. Are you saying you want to be an "honest" pilot and be allowed to make money in complete safety in high sec? Isn't that reward without risk?

If you accept a high sec courier contract, then fly it from point a to point b and nobody can blow you up, then isn't that reward without risk?

As you can see, your saying no risk vs reward is a bad thing, but you want to gain rewards without the risk of being ganked. It makes no sense? High sec is already horrendously biased to the safety side of things. Why the hell do we have concord? Super assrape ships that warp in in a matter of seconds and blow the **** out of anyone breaking the rules with no chance of being able to escape or evade them? That's imbalanced as can be.

Shouldn't a "bad guy" be able to perpetrate a crime and be able to get away now and again?

The only part of the argument (note "the" not "yours" because this has been brought up a million times) is that it only takes a few destroyers to gank very expensive ships. Of course, if you tank your ships a little and more importantly pay attention to wtf you are doing, your "risk" of being ganked decreases a LOT.

I run (on my alt) industrial ships and/or freighters in and out of jita multiple times a day, sometimes with billions of isk worth of stuff, I have NEVER been ganked. I can attribute this to taking some precautions and being aware of what I'm doing. I.E. don't auto pilot to jita 4-4 with 5 bil worth of goods in an iteron.

I'm rambling a bit. Point being, Risk vs Reward in high sec is already imbalanced with way too much reward for way too little risk. Suicide ganking is not a problem, if you take a few steps in self preservation and aren't stupid, you will greatly reduce your chances of being ganked.

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-06-07 16:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Kijo Rikki wrote:
OP mentions risk reward ratio in relation to ganking. Fails to mention risk/reward ratio for mining in hisec.


I can do that for ya.

- Miner undocks in Hulk.
- Catalyst gang shoots Hulk and it explodas before miner has even started aligning to belt.
- Miner barely docks before gets podded.
- Miner undocks in new Hulk and gets podded.
- New gankers warp in to replace the ones that were here. Because gankers got small sec status hit they have to go to rat in nearby lowsec system protected by large GSF fleet. 2 hours and they go back to let other group to go grind their sec status back up again.
- This continues for hours.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#29 - 2012-06-07 16:17:18 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
OP mentions risk reward ratio in relation to ganking. Fails to mention risk/reward ratio for mining in hisec.


I can do that for ya.

- Miner undocks in Hulk.
- Catalyst gang shoots Hulk and it explodas before miner has even started aligning to belt.
- Miner barely docks before gets podded.
- Miner undocks in new Hulk and gets podded.
- New gankers warp in to replace the ones that were here. Because gankers got small sec status hit they have to go to rat in nearby lowsec system protected by large GSF fleet. 2 hours and they go back to let other group to go grind their sec status back up again.
- This continues for hours.


Try a catalyst gank on a station. Just try testing One thing One time before you post here.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#30 - 2012-06-07 16:18:07 UTC
Savage Angel wrote:
Disregard That wrote:
Savage Angel wrote:
To really match RL, the game would fine the ganking player, his corp, and any associates for the cost of the ship destroyed, court costs, and emotional distress - then give 80% of it to the NPC lawyers.

Courts only have power over mortals.

Did you ever see Zeus in court?

Immortals. You can't really jail them long enough.


I was not talking about criminal courts. Civil court is where justice has a chance of happening. Criminal court just punishes wrongdoing for the most part. Concord takes care of that end, but if Eve was more like RL, the lawyers would be drooling over capsuleers. You may not be able to kill one, but you can take all his ISK.


Only if the court can enforce its ruling on the capsuleer.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
seany1212
M Y S T
#31 - 2012-06-07 16:20:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
OP mentions risk reward ratio in relation to ganking. Fails to mention risk/reward ratio for mining in hisec.


I can do that for ya.

- Miner undocks in Hulk.
- Catalyst gang shoots Hulk and it explodas before miner has even started aligning to belt.
- Miner barely docks before gets podded.
- Miner undocks in new Hulk and gets podded.
- New gankers warp in to replace the ones that were here. Because gankers got small sec status hit they have to go to rat in nearby lowsec system protected by large GSF fleet. 2 hours and they go back to let other group to go grind their sec status back up again.
- This continues for hours.


Make the fastest, cheapest frigate you can. Undock. MWD in a straight line past a distance of 150km. Bookmark. Warp back to station. Board hulk. Undock. Insta-warp to bookmark. Continue.

God you guys have no imagination, you want everything spoon fed...
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-06-07 16:20:34 UTC
My thought process as I read:

Archaegeo Neosophy wrote:
I keep coming back to Eve over and over, but it keep failing to hold me.


Should probably get out of the newbie corp, bro.

Archaegeo Neosophy wrote:
If it had, id have monster SP by now and an empire, but it just isnt working, and I want it to so bad because so many of the systems and designs are so good....but...

They still havent fixed Risk vs Reward.


Man exactly, even this guy can see it, the rewards for being in highsec are far out of proportion for the risk you're exposed to, that's why nobody lives in lowsec and there aren't enough people trying to take space in nullsec. I'm glad we're on the same wavelength!

Archaegeo Neosophy wrote:
Now feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but the whole reason you have gangs of Catalysts ganking Hulks in HI-Sec is because the reward (what he carries, his systems, etc) FAR outweight the risk (loss of a Cat).

The same applies to scam contracts, courier and otherwise. If you take a contract to courier something in hi-sec, and get ganked by the guy who gave it to you, you lose your collateral and he walks away minus a ship (that assumedly costs less).

This is the same problem that arises in any FFA system without adequate "deterrants" to keep the honest people honest, and make the bad people have to plan and work hard for their rewards.


Oh... wait maybe we're not on the same wavelength

Archaegeo Neosophy wrote:
Lets say if you got caught by Concord doing something illegal, instead of shooting your ship they put you in "prison"


Oh holy mother of Christ!

Get out.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#33 - 2012-06-07 16:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kijo Rikki
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
OP mentions risk reward ratio in relation to ganking. Fails to mention risk/reward ratio for mining in hisec.


I can do that for ya.

- Miner undocks in Hulk.
- Catalyst gang shoots Hulk and it explodas before miner has even started aligning to belt.
- Miner barely docks before gets podded.
- Miner undocks in new Hulk and gets podded.
- New gankers warp in to replace the ones that were here. Because gankers got small sec status hit they have to go to rat in nearby lowsec system protected by large GSF fleet. 2 hours and they go back to let other group to go grind their sec status back up again.
- This continues for hours.


So what I've learned here is miners don't have an instawarp on undock bookmark. My my....I bet you don't have a bookmark to warp to 0 on station that counters the default dropoff out of dock range using the station icon either.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-06-07 16:22:06 UTC
Dear OP,

Space isnt like England

Space is like Somalia

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-06-07 16:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Archaegeo Neosophy wrote:


Now feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but the whole reason you have gangs of Catalysts ganking Hulks in HI-Sec is because the reward (what he carries, his systems, etc) FAR outweight the risk (loss of a Cat).



Wrong, that's the definition of risk vs lulz, he might not scream and whine at you in which case you took a risk and got no lulz Cry

Skippermonkey wrote:
Dear OP,

Space isnt like England

Space is like Somalia


And we haz black people now Big smile

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2012-06-07 16:23:40 UTC
Why should stupid people be protected?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-06-07 16:25:04 UTC
seany1212 wrote:
Make the fastest, cheapest frigate you can. Undock. MWD in a straight line past a distance of 150km. Bookmark. Warp back to station. Board hulk. Undock. Insta-warp to bookmark. Continue.


Two problems:
- That's still on grid.
- It's warpable.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#38 - 2012-06-07 16:28:31 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
Make the fastest, cheapest frigate you can. Undock. MWD in a straight line past a distance of 150km. Bookmark. Warp back to station. Board hulk. Undock. Insta-warp to bookmark. Continue.


Two problems:
- That's still on grid.
- It's warpable.


And they'd have to be in your fleet to warp to you. >_< ...otherwise, they have to mwd out to you.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Lili Lu
#39 - 2012-06-07 16:29:46 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
Make the fastest, cheapest frigate you can. Undock. MWD in a straight line past a distance of 150km. Bookmark. Warp back to station. Board hulk. Undock. Insta-warp to bookmark. Continue.


Two problems:
- That's still on grid.
- It's warpable.

Yes,he did not say "past" a distance of 150km. Also, if you do only go a little over 150km, be sure to drop a can for the ebil priate to warp to. P

It's called making an insta. Like many things in eve it can work. But no guarantees that it will always keep your butt safe.Lol
Archaegeo Neosophy
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-06-07 16:29:50 UTC
Telling people who like the game but seek change to leave doesnt help CCP get more income, therefore more development for the game you like.

Saying Go Away to people with different opinions than yours is about the pettiest you can be.


That aside, permdeath work would too as a deterant, since many of you like to claim this is the wild west.

That was what kept the wild west semi-civilized, if a man came and shot you, you didnt respawn and come shoot him back.

(oh, I know, most of you wont be able to handle wizardry online because it has permadeath)

Now I know that Eve's systems wouldnt work with permadeath. Thats ok.

It doesnt change the point the the penalty for breaking the "law" in hi-sec isnt enough of a deterant riht now.