These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Here's a plan.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
St0n3r0d1um
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2012-06-07 06:56:43 UTC
Come on, bring a lot a ships please \o/
We are gonna die !
Mme Pinkerton
#42 - 2012-06-07 07:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mme Pinkerton
I honestly appreciate your enthusiasm but every sentence of your blog post screams "I have never taken part in any large fleet combat before" - which is probably not the best starting point if you want people to commit a few hundred billion based on your plan.

Quote:
Goonswarm Federation has grown rich. Powerful. Arrogant. Complacent

agreed, any cathartic effect the loss of Delve might have had is long gone.

Quote:
A ragtag fleet of capsuleer ships, equipped with cloaking devices, jammers, and cynosural field generators, will infiltrate to the heart of GSF space: VFK-IV, in Deklein.

ragtag: no
cloaks, jammer and cynos: yes
infiltrate: no

* sorry, but ragtag fleets don't work unless you have massive numerical superiority (which you won't have, you'll more likely be outnumbered);
* ECM is nice but other things (e.g. logistics, anti-tackle/bombers) are usually more important - ECM is extremely strong in small gangs but in practice it does not scale all that well in larger engagements.Jamming hostile logistics is a good idea that can work, jamming dps is hopeless.
* Having some sturdy ships with a cyno (even offlined cyno is better than nothing) is never a mistake.
* I apologize for the being blunt but "infiltrating" space is really dumb idea - all it does is send in many easy targets one by one. You want your subcap fleet to form up in northern Lonetrek and then titan-bridge them with a midpoint in NPC Pure Blind to some system near VFK.

Quote:
On the way, cyno frigates trailing the advance guard will deploy at regular intervals, allowing a capital or supercapital fleet owned by a competing alliance to keep pace with the fleet.

nope, that's a stupid idea. You get the cynos into position and then move your capital fleet the whole way in one go - the only delays should be your carriers recapping the fleet between jumps.

Quote:
Having arrived in VFK-IV, the advance guard will form a jammer-wall to defend the main cyno ships, likely cruisers or battlecruisers for tanking ability. These will allow the capital fleet's vanguard and additional cyno ships to jump in.

I have no idea what a "jammer wall" is supposed to be but it doesn't work.
Using something tanky is probably a good idea but it's unlikely it will stay alive for long in either case. First you jump in some carriers, then use an Archon as a second cyno to bring in the rest of your fleet.

An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
Mme Pinkerton
#43 - 2012-06-07 07:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mme Pinkerton
Quote:
First, however, a takedown of any cynosural jamming fields present must be effected. This must be carried out by ships infiltrated individually: a simple brute-force attack would likely be unsuccessful- and would also defeat the purpose of the objective. Stealth bombers or heavy gunships may need to be deployed for this stage. Again, a jammer-wall will also probably be needed, to lessen the effect of any defensive actions.

You can't take out a cynogenerator without getting noticed... "Heavy gunships" would be dreads which you don''t have available while the jammer is up.
At that point you have to split your subcaps - one fleet takes out the jammer while the rest camps station, gates and jumpbridge (bubble all the things). The defenders have the capital advantage, can reship faster than you, will rip into you with stealth bombers and this will be bloody but there's no way around it.

You should also set up at least one staging POS in system asap.

Quote:
Once the capital fleet is in VFK-IV, the fleet may either assist the capital fleet, or run for home, depending on individual preference.

haha, once you have baited a friendly capital fleet into a hellhole with 8000 angry goons you give your subcaps permission to leave at will. Nice style.

Quote:
Cheap, but effective, fittings are encouraged. Many ships will probably be lost: numbers and replacement ability are vital.

that point alone invalidates your whole "infiltration" concept. You need your subcap fleet able to reship and "I just died, see you in a few days when I have infiltrated my way back in" is not the way to go. Get some titans and a low-sec staging system or gtfo.

Quote:
While nullsec pilots are welcome, and perhaps needed for some roles such as, you know, understanding sovereignty and cyno warfare, the advance guard is intended to be composed mainly of highsec pilots. After all, it's no fun if everyone's a leet peeveepee-er.

agreed, it's more fun when people rage because their faction fit nightmare just died during "infiltration".

An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
Mme Pinkerton
#44 - 2012-06-07 07:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mme Pinkerton
Quote:
The original fleet's flagship will be the Punisher Zero Point when I'm in it, and whatever the hell the FC is flying when I'm not. The flagship serves no real purpose, but any fleet should have a flagship, really. (The flagship pilot and the FC are not the same person when I'm flying the Zero Point.)

I don't even... maybe make sure you have enough actual command ships (they tend to die 5 minutes into the fight) instead of waxing on about your frikking Punisher.
"I can't be arsed to commit more than 10m ISK of my own, but you please bring your supers"

Quote:

Priority should be given to ECM ships at all times, and DPS ships during any siege combat that occurs. Slots should also be reserved for allied capital pilots during cyno operation: the cyno ship and the jumping ship need to be in the same fleet.

if your capitals are in your main fleet you are doing it wrong - and if you have free room in your subcap fleet (instead of 2-3 fleets) you have not enough number anyways.

edit: your venture won't get off the ground and you will of course blame it on the lack of an alliance to partner with, that is understood. But hopefully my comments help a little by illustrating the gap between your idea of fleet warfare and the reality of eve.

An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-06-07 07:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyle Myr
OP: For your pan to work, you'll need to contest the sovereignty of VFK. To do this, you'll need to anchor Sovereignty Blockade Units (SBUs) on >51% of the gates in system (in this case, >3), and prevent them from dying while you kill the structures in the system.

Once you've done this, you'll need to reinforce the Infrastructure Hub and the station in the system. There are two timers on each (Up to 24 hours on the iHub, up to 48 hours on the station) for you to take. While the station and iHub are reinforced, your SBUs will be invulnerable. Once you've gotten through these 4 timers, the Territorial Claim Unit (TCU) will be vulnerable. At this point, killing the TCU will allow you to anchor your own, and take the system.

Honestly, it's a bit to follow. I look forward to maybe fighting you on one of those timers.

edit: the poster above has raised quite few valid points (I disagree mildly about the role of ECM in large fleet warfare based on my experience with our doctrine, but the fact our use is unusual proves that it generally isn't considered viable), but please don't let this discourage you from making a trip out to hit VFK.
Myxx
The Scope
#46 - 2012-06-07 07:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Ninety Nine point nine percent (repeating of course) chance of failure.

If after this warning, you still run ahed, you deserve to die from the horrible supercap and alpha fleet they will respond with.

Imo, getting TEST and PL and such pissed at them is probably a better idea and more likely to do something other than pad their killboard.

It will, however, make for some interesting reading, I'm sure.

Oh well, good luck. Maybe you can get lucky and exceed their attention span or something.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-06-07 07:58:55 UTC
That's not a plan, that's fan fiction.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Mme Pinkerton
#48 - 2012-06-07 07:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mme Pinkerton
Myxx wrote:
Oh well, good luck. Maybe you can get lucky and exceed their attention span or something.

dbrb's attention span is measured in weeks not hours

goonswarm wins wars by losing every single battle - they just continue to show up until one day you don't

An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-06-07 08:08:19 UTC
Just remember when you get to VFK timing is crucial. Make sure the ground team have destroyed the shield generator station otherwise youll have to call off the attack. And remember that half built space station is actually fully operational and can fire its DD at you.

Once the shield is down fly a small modified light freighter into the centre of the station and explode it from there. The plan is brilliant, what could possibly go wrong?

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Myxx
The Scope
#50 - 2012-06-07 08:10:41 UTC
Mme Pinkerton wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Oh well, good luck. Maybe you can get lucky and exceed their attention span or something.

dbrb's attention span is measured in weeks not hours

goonswarm wins wars by losing every single battle - they just continue to show up until one day you don't


Impressive attention span.

oh shiny... *wanders off*
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#51 - 2012-06-07 08:19:52 UTC
*Paging General Akbar*
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#52 - 2012-06-07 10:24:00 UTC
Frederick Sanger wrote:
The barbarians are at the gate only they're awful.


Revolting in fact.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#53 - 2012-06-07 10:32:19 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
*Paging General Akbar*



Wait, I thought they were laying siege to VFK... not TPARQuestion

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jace Errata
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-06-07 12:17:38 UTC
OKAY. Now no longer tired and in the small hours.

I'll just answer some of the points raised here (other than the ones like "you're stupid and so is your plan". Real helpful, there.)

- ECM wall -
Yeah, this is possibly overrated. The idea is that it just disrupts and distracts long enough to get the job done, and then flees along with the rest of the fleet. If that's not possible, well, another plan will have to be made :D

- One-hop capital fleet -
I was basing the "keeping pace" idea on limited jump ranges. If it is possible to bring them all the way in one jump, then that's much preferable.

- Flagship is terrible -
Like I said, the flagship means nothing. It's either me or the FC, depending on whether I'm in fleet (I will need to log out occasionally over a multi-day operation), and that means that even when I'm in fleet, it likely won't be me that's FC. I've never FC'd a large fleet in my life. Oh, and the 10m ISK part- I don't even have 10m ISK. That's why I said the only reward for providing supers is having those supers parked in VFK, free to do whatever it is you do with supers in a hostile system.

- Infiltration is terrible -
I disagree. It negates the intel-gathering ability of local (there's no one big push coming from a single direction that can be intercepted)...and it's all ninja and sneaky, which is sort of the point. Plus of course, a non-stop thunder run all the way to VFK would be hard to organize; not all pilots will be in the same timezone, not all will be in the same corp, or even alliance.

- Reship ability -
Infiltration is only necessary for the first wave. Once they're in and fighting, they're providing a distraction, and there's even the possibility of riding a friendly Titan bridge closer to the fight. Not right to VFK obviously, since if we're still fighting we haven't got the jammers down yet, but at least to a rally point closer in.

- Caps in fleet -
Reread please. AFAIK, capitals need to be in the same fleet as the cyno ships to use the cynos. That's why I specified "during cyno operation".

- Jammer takedown -
[minor derp: purpose of the operation, not purpose of the objective]
By "infiltrated individually", I mean they came in separately, then all jumped on whatever needs shooting.
Regarding all that SBUs, iHubs etc. stuff: holy ****. Okay, this may be more complicated than I thought, and it may be necessary to bring members of the backing alliance along with the advance guard, in order to sort out sov correctly.

- I've never done sov or null warfare before -
True, but I gotta start somewhere.

Planning to answer more points shortly.

tweeten

One day they woke me up so I could live forever

It's such a shame the same will never happen to you
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#55 - 2012-06-07 13:24:26 UTC
Jace Errata wrote:
--



There's no way you really believe this will not end in embarassment.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#56 - 2012-06-07 13:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Snow Axe wrote:
That's not a plan, that's fan fiction.

Copied, too. OP is basically re-creating the plan from Clear Skies 3.

Also, it takes near to a week to flip sov, and all the timers are available for both sides to see. There's no sneakyness possible, as soon as those timers are up you'll be fighting the full force of the CFC on a call to arms.

That usually doesn't end well.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#57 - 2012-06-07 13:32:35 UTC
Jace Errata wrote:
it's all ninja and sneaky

But you announced the plan :picardfacepalm:

Or are you going to get the Full API of every fleet member to ensure they're not related to the CFC in any way and will tip the exact go time and fleet composition off?

This is why those RvB ganked roams always JUST HAPPEN to land in a smartbomb camp.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Robus Muvila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-06-07 14:46:00 UTC
Jace Errata wrote:


Words Words Words...




You might want to talk to this guy I'm sure he's just full of useful tips on how to mount a successful attack on the heart of goonspace.

TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages
Singoth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-06-07 14:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Singoth
LET'S GO FULL RTARD, GUYS.
THEY'LL NEVER SEE IT COMING.

Less yappin', more zappin'!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-06-07 18:42:54 UTC
Singoth wrote:
LET'S GO FULL RTARD, GUYS.
THEY'LL NEVER SEE IT COMING.


It might even if we weren't an alliance full of retards already.


"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["