These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Missioners v's Incursioners
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Suqq Madiq
#21 - 2012-06-08 14:58:07 UTC
Mazzy Star wrote:
If you're capping out at 50 million/hour including LP conversions doing missions, you're doing missions wrong. You can earn quite a bit more than that with the right ships and planning.


Horseshit. 50mil / hr is as entirely reasonable for the "average mission runner" as 100mil / hr is for the "average incursion runner". What 50mil / hr means is consistent 10-15mil Bounty ticks every 20 minutes (good luck with that) and mission payouts of ~10mil ISK per mission factoring in the 2-3mil in straight ISK and the 5-6k LP which, at a generous rate of 1500 ISK/LP, nets another 8-9mil ISK.

As a further breakdown, mission rewards come in three variants, the bounties collected on killing the rats, the ISK and LP awarded for tuning in each mission and the salvage and loot collected after the mission.

Bounties = 10-15mil per tick = 30-45mil / hr
Turn In = 2-2.5mil ISK + 5-6k LP = 10-12mil ISK

If you're earning those kind of bounties, you'll be pushing out a mission every 30-40 minutes and skipping salvage. In which case, your average income is in the area of 45-55mil ISK / hr. Or, roughly, ~50mil ISK / hr.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-06-08 15:05:46 UTC
Mazzy Star wrote:
As a first matter, the planning and LP research is more of a one time thing and doesn't require that much effort. There's little point considering most LP store items like ships and charters because they almost never have a good conversion rate. Once you find a good item or several good items, you can just keep churning them out with LP until the market changes. I cash out the same way today with the same items as I did four years ago. Also, you say that you don't do any planning or research, but I would disagree with that. WH's operate a bit differently than other areas of EVE and there are things you need to learn to run wormhole content safely and efficiently. Were I to venture a guess, I would say you have done more work to get your WH running setup than most people do to begin missioning.

Also, I'm not disputing WH's are good for income - they generally are much better ISK/hr than mission running and they should be. They're also high risk though and they aren't a sure thing. What I have a problem with is people comparing the "average" mission runner who can only make 40-50 mil/h against the incursion fleets like ISN who are getting 100m+ an hour, while ignoring the travel time and wait time that accompanies incursion running. It's a matter of comparing apples to apples.



And I guess the only peeve I had with your reply to me is the fact that you immediately throw out "I'm doing it wrong" without knowing anything about my character.

I have friends who can make very good isk mission running. They have high amounts of SP and can fly a decent range of mission ships. this lets them pick the fastest ship for a particular mission. For them they may use their Tengu for some. Marauder for others. Faction BS for yet others.

I can fly exactly one BS well for missions, and that is my Dominix. It is a good boat but I think everyone will agree it is not the fastest mission ship out there. Therefore that was why I made my isk/hr assessment based on my skills. I never said mission runners in general cap out at 50mil/hr. I was making an observation of what "I" can make mission running vs WH's based on what accounts "I" have available to me, since that is the only fair apples to apples comparison.
Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2012-06-08 16:58:56 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Mazzy Star wrote:
If you're capping out at 50 million/hour including LP conversions doing missions, you're doing missions wrong. You can earn quite a bit more than that with the right ships and planning.


Horseshit. 50mil / hr is as entirely reasonable for the "average mission runner" as 100mil / hr is for the "average incursion runner". What 50mil / hr means is consistent 10-15mil Bounty ticks every 20 minutes (good luck with that) and mission payouts of ~10mil ISK per mission factoring in the 2-3mil in straight ISK and the 5-6k LP which, at a generous rate of 1500 ISK/LP, nets another 8-9mil ISK.

As a further breakdown, mission rewards come in three variants, the bounties collected on killing the rats, the ISK and LP awarded for tuning in each mission and the salvage and loot collected after the mission.

Bounties = 10-15mil per tick = 30-45mil / hr
Turn In = 2-2.5mil ISK + 5-6k LP = 10-12mil ISK

If you're earning those kind of bounties, you'll be pushing out a mission every 30-40 minutes and skipping salvage. In which case, your average income is in the area of 45-55mil ISK / hr. Or, roughly, ~50mil ISK / hr.


I'm not sure that 100 m/hr is what the average incursionbear pulls in these days when you factor in travel time, wait time, down time, etc., but I'd say that's probably reasonable including LP. Now sure, some of the good groups that run incursions still pull in nice cash (at least the few groups that still bother with incursions), but there's still wait time, travel time, etc. even when running with these groups. Also, who said I was talking about average anything? I'm talking potential and where the cap is for mission running.

To give you an idea, with my agent and skills, I bring in about 12,000 LP for missions like WC, Recon 1, Dread Pilot Scarlet, etc. I convert at a rate of 3500 ISK/LP. That puts me at 42mil per mission in LP rewards alone for these missions, not including bounties and turn in rewards. Moreover, a lot of these missions are blitzable within a few minutes time, and I can do quite a few per hour. I also have multiple characters that can accept missions, allowing me to decline the bad missions and blitz out several back to back without having to return to station in between. In short, when you include LP, 50 m/hr is far from the potential maximum.

And please don't take this as me trying to claim I'm the king of missionbears or anything, because I'm not and there are definitely people that are way more efficient than I am at it. I'm simply saying that people can and do earn well over 50 m/hr including LP conversions from missions.
Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2012-06-08 17:07:48 UTC
Quote:
And I guess the only peeve I had with your reply to me is the fact that you immediately throw out "I'm doing it wrong" without knowing anything about my character.

I have friends who can make very good isk mission running. They have high amounts of SP and can fly a decent range of mission ships. this lets them pick the fastest ship for a particular mission. For them they may use their Tengu for some. Marauder for others. Faction BS for yet others.

I can fly exactly one BS well for missions, and that is my Dominix. It is a good boat but I think everyone will agree it is not the fastest mission ship out there. Therefore that was why I made my isk/hr assessment based on my skills. I never said mission runners in general cap out at 50mil/hr. I was making an observation of what "I" can make mission running vs WH's based on what accounts "I" have available to me, since that is the only fair apples to apples comparison.


You have to realize I'm talking in generalities because I don't know what ships you can and can't fly, what modules you can fit, what skills you have at 5, etc. If you're a 1 million SP character, you would, generally speaking, be doing great to pull in 50 m/hr from missions. If you have maximum BS ship/module skills and the corresponding support skills, then that number is well under your potential. However, given that I don't know what you fly, I'm simply saying that as a general matter, 50m/hr including LP is well under the potential for mission running.

Put another way, assuming that we're having a discussion about sources of income specific to your particular character is silly for a number of reasons. First and foremost, we don't know what you can and can't fly. It would be like me saying that mining only earns 5000 ISK/hr, when the reason is because I'm mining in an Ibis because I have no SP in industry. It's also a rather boring point of discussion, as it wouldn't be entirely relevant to the general populace, but rather only interesting to you and people with a similar SP distribution. In short, my comments were directed at the potential for mission running income, assuming maximum SP and a competent pilot. I'm not telling you how to spend your time, how to train your character, and so on.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-06-08 17:32:18 UTC
Mazzy Star wrote:
Put another way, assuming that we're having a discussion about sources of income specific to your particular character is silly for a number of reasons.


Well sorry, but it's not. I was simply giving a comparison if isk/hr I could make given my skills for 2 different scenarios (missions and wormholes). It is the ONLY way I can make a valid comparison that is an apples to apples. The numbers are honestly not even that relevant. The more important metric would be the ratio between the two.

Mazzy Star wrote:
In short, my comments were directed at the potential for mission running income, assuming maximum SP and a competent pilot. I'm not telling you how to spend your time, how to train your character, and so on.


Fine. But in doing so, you were commenting on my potential mission income as it would relate to a max SP character, in comparison to my stated income in a WH. Which isn't apples to apples.
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#26 - 2012-06-08 18:11:11 UTC
Missions: 20+ mil per hour and boring as hell.

Incursions: much less boring but depends on how fast you can get into fleet (somewhere in between 15 minutes and few hours or even days) - from zero up to 45-50 mil/hour. If you are lucky and 1/4 of fleet doesn't leave after HQ site you'll be able to finish 2 sites per hour making it 60m/hour.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-06-08 18:15:32 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
Missions: 20+ mil per hour and boring as hell.

Incursions: much less boring but depends on how fast you can get into fleet (somewhere in between 15 minutes and few hours or even days) - from zero up to 45-50 mil/hour. If you are lucky and 1/4 of fleet doesn't leave after HQ site you'll be able to finish 2 sites per hour making it 60m/hour.


Or a negative number if logis fell asleep. And it will happen at one point or another.Big smile
Suqq Madiq
#28 - 2012-06-08 19:04:15 UTC
Mazzy Star wrote:
I'm not sure that 100 m/hr is what the average incursionbear pulls in these days when you factor in travel time, wait time, down time, etc., but I'd say that's probably reasonable including LP. Now sure, some of the good groups that run incursions still pull in nice cash (at least the few groups that still bother with incursions), but there's still wait time, travel time, etc. even when running with these groups. Also, who said I was talking about average anything? I'm talking potential and where the cap is for mission running.

To give you an idea, with my agent and skills, I bring in about 12,000 LP for missions like WC, Recon 1, Dread Pilot Scarlet, etc. I convert at a rate of 3500 ISK/LP. That puts me at 42mil per mission in LP rewards alone for these missions, not including bounties and turn in rewards. Moreover, a lot of these missions are blitzable within a few minutes time, and I can do quite a few per hour. I also have multiple characters that can accept missions, allowing me to decline the bad missions and blitz out several back to back without having to return to station in between. In short, when you include LP, 50 m/hr is far from the potential maximum.

And please don't take this as me trying to claim I'm the king of missionbears or anything, because I'm not and there are definitely people that are way more efficient than I am at it. I'm simply saying that people can and do earn well over 50 m/hr including LP conversions from missions.


Congratulations on being part of the elite level of mission runners who run missions outside of highsec among the safety net of your alliance's sovereignty and intelligence network. Your 12000 LP per mission is wildly unrealistic for 99.9% of the EVE populace. Further, your claim to convert LP at 3500 ISK/LP is clearly falsified or exaggerated as even the most profitable items available from any NPC Corporation (I've run the numbers on all of them) comes out to around 2200-2500 ISK/LP, depending on the availability of the NPC tags required for the conversion.
Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2012-06-08 19:36:32 UTC
Quote:
Well sorry, but it's not. I was simply giving a comparison if isk/hr I could make given my skills for 2 different scenarios (missions and wormholes). It is the ONLY way I can make a valid comparison that is an apples to apples. The numbers are honestly not even that relevant. The more important metric would be the ratio between the two.


That's assuming the ratio would be the same if you had higher SP, which it would not. I suspect you're fairly close to the potential income/hr from solo C2/C3 WH's if you're bringing in 200m/hr alone, all things considered. At the same time, there's room to grow in mission running. In any event, it doesn't really matter.
Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2012-06-08 19:42:56 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Congratulations on being part of the elite level of mission runners who run missions outside of highsec among the safety net of your alliance's sovereignty and intelligence network. Your 12000 LP per mission is wildly unrealistic for 99.9% of the EVE populace. Further, your claim to convert LP at 3500 ISK/LP is clearly falsified or exaggerated as even the most profitable items available from any NPC Corporation (I've run the numbers on all of them) comes out to around 2200-2500 ISK/LP, depending on the availability of the NPC tags required for the conversion.


That's just funny. While you're correct I don't mission in high sec, the space I do mission in is equally accessible to just about any other player that is interested. Also, I haven't exaggerated anything as far as conversion rates. For that matter, there are other corporations that offer better conversion rates. I just happen to be accustomed to running missions in a particular area and see no need to really shake things up. If you've indeed run the numbers on every single item for every single corporation, you need to a) get a life outside of this game and b) improve your spreadsheet-fu, because your numbers are off.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-06-08 19:45:24 UTC
Mazzy Star wrote:
Quote:
Well sorry, but it's not. I was simply giving a comparison if isk/hr I could make given my skills for 2 different scenarios (missions and wormholes). It is the ONLY way I can make a valid comparison that is an apples to apples. The numbers are honestly not even that relevant. The more important metric would be the ratio between the two.


That's assuming the ratio would be the same if you had higher SP, which it would not. I suspect you're fairly close to the potential income/hr from solo C2/C3 WH's if you're bringing in 200m/hr alone, all things considered. At the same time, there's room to grow in mission running. In any event, it doesn't really matter.


And if I had more SP I could likely participate in higher level WH PVE so the ratio may well scale up.

That being said the ONLY thing I was trying to point out/refute was Nuela's comment on page one that out of EVERYTHING she had tried (which seemed about everything according to her) that LVL 4 missions were the best isk/hr in the game. They are probobly the best low to no risk isk in the game. But they are certainly not the highest isk/hr you can make.
Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2012-06-08 20:23:52 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
And if I had more SP I could likely participate in higher level WH PVE so the ratio may well scale up.

That being said the ONLY thing I was trying to point out/refute was Nuela's comment on page one that out of EVERYTHING she had tried (which seemed about everything according to her) that LVL 4 missions were the best isk/hr in the game. They are probobly the best low to no risk isk in the game. But they are certainly not the highest isk/hr you can make.


It seems like we're each trying to address someone else's point and talking past each other in the process. :) My post was more directed at the folks comparing high-end incursion running with "average" mission income. I think we're in total agreement though that level 4 missions generally aren't the best income in the game, especially on average. I think high-end WH's hold that title, although there are lots of disadvantages that come with committing to those WH's too.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-06-08 20:33:30 UTC
Mazzy Star wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
And if I had more SP I could likely participate in higher level WH PVE so the ratio may well scale up.

That being said the ONLY thing I was trying to point out/refute was Nuela's comment on page one that out of EVERYTHING she had tried (which seemed about everything according to her) that LVL 4 missions were the best isk/hr in the game. They are probobly the best low to no risk isk in the game. But they are certainly not the highest isk/hr you can make.


It seems like we're each trying to address someone else's point and talking past each other in the process. :) My post was more directed at the folks comparing high-end incursion running with "average" mission income. I think we're in total agreement though that level 4 missions generally aren't the best income in the game, especially on average. I think high-end WH's hold that title, although there are lots of disadvantages that come with committing to those WH's too.


True. The only reason we got off on this tangent was your reply that I was "doing it wrong" . Just as you mentioned it was silly to try and compare my LVL 4 income because you don't know what I can fly, telling me I am doing it wrong is just as silly as, well, you don't know what I can fly.

As for incursions, I have refrained from commenting as I have never run incursions. I have wanted to try but still don't fly any cool shiny ships that have gotten me into any fleets.
Solomunio Kzenig
The Intrinsic Ones
#34 - 2012-06-09 17:55:25 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
Missions: 20+ mil per hour and boring as hell.

Incursions: much less boring but depends on how fast you can get into fleet (somewhere in between 15 minutes and few hours or even days) - from zero up to 45-50 mil/hour. If you are lucky and 1/4 of fleet doesn't leave after HQ site you'll be able to finish 2 sites per hour making it 60m/hour.



^^This pretty much.
Previous page12