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Tengu Pair
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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-06-06 00:25:51 UTC
I have been playing with EFT and came to realize (maybe obvious to others) that I seem to be able to make a much better tanked tengu pair using RR than 2 local rep fits.

This would be primarily for C3 sites. I always dual box 2 dps pilots running sites. The big difference is that I seem to be able to make 2 RR tengu's that tank extremely well and is all T2 fit (ie much less expensive) than 2 locally tanked Tengu's.

Is there any major downside to dual boxing them as RR vs just 2 local rep?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2 - 2012-06-06 00:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
RR tengus work extremely well as you can pad out the mids with resists and move the shield "boosting" to a high slot, the RR modules also use less cap for the same level of tank compared to a local booster. The only downside is if your running a site with scrams and the other person disconnects, not a problem if your dual boxing. (Oh and you have to remember to stay within remote rep range).

Personally tho I don't really see the need to use tengus in a C3, passive tanked drakes handle them fine and for the cost difference from a drake to a tengu your not really seeing the benefits that tengus can provide in higher class WHs over a drake.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-06-06 00:51:29 UTC
Rroff wrote:
RR tengus work extremely well as you can pad out the mids with resists and move the shield "boosting" to a high slot, the RR modules also use less cap for the same level of tank compared to a local booster. The only downside is if your running a site with scrams and the other person disconnects, not a problem if your dual boxing. (Oh and you have to remember to stay within remote rep range).

Personally tho I don't really see the need to use tengus in a C3, passive tanked drakes handle them fine and for the cost difference from a drake to a tengu your not really seeing the benefits that tengus can provide in higher class WHs over a drake.



I guess its not a matter of whether a drake can handle it and more about speed. I've tended to use a Tengu in a C2 as well, mostly because I could get at least double the DPS compared to a drake. I like to get the sites done as quickly as possible.

I know a bunch of friends prefer nighthawks as a midpoint between a drake and tengu, but still less expensive. But my tengu pilots are a good 75 days away from a NH
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#4 - 2012-06-06 01:01:31 UTC
Decent drake fit (510dps) is only about 30% less dps max than an RR tengu (~560 to 670dps generally) - unless your running them non cap stable or putting a fair bit of pimp on the tengus (hits about 715dps).

A lot of people for some reason seem to run with very poor drake fits that are only doing 280-320 dps I'm never sure why.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-06-06 01:05:25 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Decent drake fit (510dps) is only about 30% less dps max than an RR tengu (~560 to 670dps generally) - unless your running them non cap stable or putting a fair bit of pimp on the tengus (hits about 715dps).

A lot of people for some reason seem to run with very poor drake fits that are only doing 280-320 dps I'm never sure why.


I guess I need to play more with eft as well. If I could pull off a 510dps drake with sufficient C3 tank I'd use them too, given the relative cost. I haven't figured out a fit that does that good.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#6 - 2012-06-06 01:11:21 UTC
Quote:

[Drake, C3 Drake]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I


Hobgoblin II x5


Fairly solid fit from my experience - if you have an alt that can run siege links the tank goes up a lot - to the point you can even drop one of the SPRs for more dps.

If you've got a pair of RR tengus and decent amount of WH experience you might consider C4s tho some people don't reckon it works out any better ISK/time wise than C3s with just a pair of tengus but I know other people who make a decent amount from it - they are quite a bit harder than C3 sites tho with just a pair of tengus.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-06-06 01:28:51 UTC
I would like nothing more than a C4 with like a C3 static. But I have corp mates that don't have the experience or ship skillset for a C4 yet. So it will likely be an "upgrade path".
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#8 - 2012-06-06 04:28:13 UTC
C4 sites tend to make just as much ISK/hr as C3's. You don't get that much more blue poo, there are less wrecks/site than C3's for the difficulty of rats, and the neuting can be pretty fierce. The ideal is 3-4 RR Tengus and a salvage noctis - 2 is doable but you lack the DPS to crack the sleeper RR chains quickly.

Nighthawks are very efficient for C3's, especially compared to tengus when you consider the ISK at risk.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-06-06 04:39:07 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
C4 sites tend to make just as much ISK/hr as C3's. You don't get that much more blue poo, there are less wrecks/site than C3's for the difficulty of rats, and the neuting can be pretty fierce. The ideal is 3-4 RR Tengus and a salvage noctis - 2 is doable but you lack the DPS to crack the sleeper RR chains quickly.

Nighthawks are very efficient for C3's, especially compared to tengus when you consider the ISK at risk.


True,

But a C4/C3 would give you the same C3 farming option as a C2/C3. Double statics annoy me. Big smile
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-06-06 04:44:17 UTC
the only real downside is that you have to stay close together so if you get jumped, youre basically certain to lose both.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Qui Shon
Lone Wolf Freelancers
#11 - 2012-06-06 05:13:08 UTC
Rroff wrote:
only about 30% less dps max


Ehm, 30% is pretty substantial.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#12 - 2012-06-06 08:26:33 UTC
Qui Shon wrote:
Rroff wrote:
only about 30% less dps max


Ehm, 30% is pretty substantial.


When your talking about a ship that costs in the region of 100m versus a ship that costs in the region of 1000m tho its not a huge gain for the ISK difference.
Bibosikus
Air
#13 - 2012-06-06 11:01:49 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Qui Shon wrote:
Rroff wrote:
only about 30% less dps max


Ehm, 30% is pretty substantial.


When your talking about a ship that costs in the region of 100m versus a ship that costs in the region of 1000m tho its not a huge gain for the ISK difference.


True, but for an hour's farming in Tengus the Drakes would need another 20 minutes.. reducing the time having your rear end hanging out in the wind is why so many farmers use pimped boats to get through the anoms as fast as possible.. bless'em Pirate

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
#14 - 2012-06-13 00:38:31 UTC
If you are dual-boxing tengus in a C3 alone, i believe making them RR is quite unnecessary. You can have 2xT2 fit local rep tengus to run C3 with either the same DPS as 2 RR tengus, or more DPS if you have the skills to fit em with 6 launchers.

A big dissadvantage the RR pair has, imo, is bad "click efficiency" which extends to bad time efficiency. Call me lazy or overthinker or wtvr but... having the friendly tengu always locked means you have to pick (click) a new target every time your previous target pops, before you reactivate the launchers, or you will start shooting your friendly tengu. Also when new waves spawn and you gotta target everything again you can never have hot guns (ready to fire as soon as you lock) and since you are dual boxing it will take a little more time on every wave to start shooting sleepers. Plus you always have 4 available targets instead of 5.

To extend it a little further, you also need to dscan (and spam combat probe?) all the time to have good spatial awareness. The more clicks you need to do in dual box, the easier it is to forget something or do something wrong (1 tengu not shooting for a while, forgot to spam probe or dscan a bit, shooting friendly tengu, yada yada..)

All in all it will take you more time to finish your noms in practice than it shows on paper.

If you need to have RR subsystems tengus so you don't have many of them, the Adaptive Shielding subsystem provides enough tank for a C3 with a T2 Large Shield Booster AND it has a slot for a probe launcher (Expanded probe launcher if you also have Emergent Locus Analyzer) - 5 launchers 4 dcu worth of dps

I dual box both C3 and C4 with 2 tengus which keep their subsystems and only switch modules according to WH class. I might post the fittings when i get home if peeps are interested

-Gio
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-06-13 00:48:29 UTC
Giorgos Rbs wrote:
If you are dual-boxing tengus in a C3 alone, i believe making them RR is quite unnecessary. You can have 2xT2 fit local rep tengus to run C3 with either the same DPS as 2 RR tengus, or more DPS if you have the skills to fit em with 6 launchers.

A big dissadvantage the RR pair has, imo, is bad "click efficiency" which extends to bad time efficiency. Call me lazy or overthinker or wtvr but... having the friendly tengu always locked means you have to pick (click) a new target every time your previous target pops, before you reactivate the launchers, or you will start shooting your friendly tengu. Also when new waves spawn and you gotta target everything again you can never have hot guns (ready to fire as soon as you lock) and since you are dual boxing it will take a little more time on every wave to start shooting sleepers. Plus you always have 4 available targets instead of 5.

To extend it a little further, you also need to dscan (and spam combat probe?) all the time to have good spatial awareness. The more clicks you need to do in dual box, the easier it is to forget something or do something wrong (1 tengu not shooting for a while, forgot to spam probe or dscan a bit, shooting friendly tengu, yada yada..)

All in all it will take you more time to finish your noms in practice than it shows on paper.

If you need to have RR subsystems tengus so you don't have many of them, the Adaptive Shielding subsystem provides enough tank for a C3 with a T2 Large Shield Booster AND it has a slot for a probe launcher (Expanded probe launcher if you also have Emergent Locus Analyzer) - 5 launchers 4 dcu worth of dps

I dual box both C3 and C4 with 2 tengus which keep their subsystems and only switch modules according to WH class. I might post the fittings when i get home if peeps are interested

-Gio



I'd be interested. My main reason was that I seemed to be able to make 2 RR tengus with a mean tank and decent DPS for far less isk (and pimp) than 2 with local tanks. But then again I'm not an uber EFT warrior.

Both of my Tengu pilots are quite good. Subs to 5. Fitting and shield skills up there (key skills to 5, rest to 4). HML2's with all support skills to 4-5 etc.

I actually triple box when running anoms. 2 dps running the sites with a scout with a deep space probe out. If there is an active WH I'll sit him on the hole while scanning with the probe and dscanning in the site (3 monitors rocks). Even when running with corp mates I always use all three for more DPS and safety.

I do agree, especially with the max targets of 5, that having one slot dedicated to locking the other tengu is annoying. Not to mention the accidental friendly fire situations.

Like i said, I was mostly looking at cost. But at the same time without having to worry about staying in rep range, 2 local rep tengus can simply stay aligned at all times which makes survivability better.
Bibosikus
Air
#16 - 2012-06-13 12:14:18 UTC
[Tengu, T2 C3 solo farmer]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers



650 tank, 520+dps, 58% stable, 60k ehp. Fine for all C3 anoms solo and for mags/radars in pairs.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-06-13 12:26:34 UTC
Bibosikus wrote:
[Tengu, T2 C3 solo farmer]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers



650 tank, 520+dps, 58% stable, 60k ehp. Fine for all C3 anoms solo and for mags/radars in pairs.


this fit is a drake with slightly smaller sig size.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-06-13 13:51:46 UTC
Bibosikus wrote:
[Tengu, T2 C3 solo farmer]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers



650 tank, 520+dps, 58% stable, 60k ehp. Fine for all C3 anoms solo and for mags/radars in pairs.


Implants or booster? At all 5 I only show 541 tank 520 dps with furies, 51% stable.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#19 - 2012-06-13 14:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
If your going to use a tengu in a C3 (which I don't reccomend) might as well go balls to the wall:

Quote:

[Tengu, C3]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Pith B-Type EM Ward Field
Pithum A-Type Explosive Deflection Amplifier
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



Almost 800dps with a couple of 3% missile implants, no idea if it will work or not but it should be able to comfortably kill anything scramming you and live to warp out if the incoming dps is too much. Otherwise might as well use a drake.


(PS fit works fine if you have a siege link alt but probably a little hairy without)
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-06-13 14:24:31 UTC
Rroff wrote:
If your going to use a tengu in a C3 (which I don't reccomend) might as well go balls to the wall:

Quote:

[Tengu, C3]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Pith B-Type EM Ward Field
Pithum A-Type Explosive Deflection Amplifier
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



Almost 800dps with a couple of 3% missile implants, no idea if it will work or not but it should be able to comfortably kill anything scramming you and live to warp out if the incoming dps is too much. Otherwise might as well use a drake.


(PS fit works fine if you have a siege link alt but probably a little hairy without)


Why would you use the Locus sub and not have a probe launcher on it? If you are gonna go balls to the wall anyhow
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