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18 years is too long
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#61 - 2012-06-05 09:27:16 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
If someone thinks training doesn't take too long I leave it up to them to come up with a reason outside of their opinion.
I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play.

Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things.

/c

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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#62 - 2012-06-05 09:29:35 UTC
EvE skill system is perfect. Only people that don't like it are the theme parkers.

The Tears Must Flow
Velicitia
XS Tech
#63 - 2012-06-05 09:31:31 UTC
Why not just leave it alone?

Who cares that it takes 18-25+ man-years to get L5 in EVERYTHING that's available? I mean, seriously, I like the fact that after however many years I've been playing now (5? 6?), that I'm still not good at PvP (skills or player) ... though took the time to get spreadsheets 5, and can supply other people to fight on my behalf (they get cheap ships that they can't build, I get not shot at ... works pretty well).

Most of the "highend" stuff is pretty pointless after L3 (T2 manufacturing skills come to mind) anyway.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#64 - 2012-06-05 09:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Vaju Enki wrote:
EvE skill system is perfect. Only people that don't like it are the theme parkers.


Its not bad but not really perfect.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-06-05 09:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Elzon1
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
I just like it where it is, there is that peculiar sense of accomplishment (I don't know why) when you come to the end of a particularly long training skill.


Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.

Talon SilverHawk wrote:
I think several ppl have said that the returns for lvl 5 are marginal and its more efficient to go to lv l4 (Tippia has a link at the bottom of her sig) then train something else, so if you wanted to, you could take years off doing that.

Tal




Indeed and I would agree to that. But at no point did I say training to level 5 was a good idea.

There seems to be an assumption when someone says that training takes too long that they are attributing SP to skill or success in EVE. Let me assure you that I am not insinuating such a thing. I am merely making the argument that training overall in EVE takes too long and that shortening it may improve the user experience in EVE that's it.

Do you guys remember the old expression:

Don’t assume anything, it makes an “ass” out of “u” and “me.”
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-06-05 10:06:14 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Elzon1 wrote:
If someone thinks training doesn't take too long I leave it up to them to come up with a reason outside of their opinion.
I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play.

Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things.

/c


OP this here sums things up nicely.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-06-05 10:21:47 UTC
Chribba wrote:
I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play.


So, if I were to finish training everything to level V the game would be over for me... I THINK NOT!!!

If I were to stop training this very second would that stop me from playing the game? NO!!! Training has got nothing to do with whether I continue playing the game or how I play it. The only thing it affects is what experiences are not available to someone yet.

The point of shortening the time it takes to train in EVE is to increase the speed with which you gain access to different possible experiences.

Chribba wrote:
Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things.


Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.

Yes, I will start copying and pasting if I see the same old arguments and opinions pop up.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#68 - 2012-06-05 10:23:42 UTC
TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-06-05 10:25:53 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
If SP has little relevance to your success in Eve it then makes no difference how long it takes to earn them.


Then why not just shorten it? Why waste time training when you could be having fun being blown up in that new ship now?


by your logic, why not just take it to the next step and eliminate SP entirely? Let's just abolish the entire training system and max everyone's character out, and when new skills are introduced to the game, everyone automatically gets them at lv.5 too! This way you won't "waste" ANY time training and could be having fun blowing things up!

Hell, while we're at it, let's make all the ships and modules free too, that way people won't have to make isk to afford ships, and thus they'll be able to spend even more time having fun blowing things up! We can call this the CoD: Elzon1 Pwnz0r expansion!


or you can just htfu or gtfo of eve, either makes no difference to me.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#70 - 2012-06-05 10:29:04 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
I just like it where it is, there is that peculiar sense of accomplishment (I don't know why) when you come to the end of a particularly long training skill.


Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.

Talon SilverHawk wrote:
I think several ppl have said that the returns for lvl 5 are marginal and its more efficient to go to lv l4 (Tippia has a link at the bottom of her sig) then train something else, so if you wanted to, you could take years off doing that.

Tal




Indeed and I would agree to that. But at no point did I say training to level 5 was a good idea.

There seems to be an assumption when someone says that training takes too long that they are attributing SP to skill or success in EVE. Let me assure you that I am not insinuating such a thing. I am merely making the argument that training overall in EVE takes too long and that shortening it may improve the user experience in EVE that's it.

Do you guys remember the old expression:

Don’t assume anything, it makes an “ass” out of “u” and “me.”



No just u, Big smile (joke in a non trolling way)


Tal
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-06-05 10:29:09 UTC
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.


And shortening the training time from 25+ years to about 10 years is going to turn EVE into a theme park MMO.

I don't think so.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-06-05 10:33:04 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge.


If you read the post you would realize I still want everyone to wait about a decade if they want everything to level V.

The reason I did that was that if the time to train was reduced below what people already took the time to train then they would be alienated. I don't want veterans to be alienated in such a way, I just want to help improve EVE for everyone.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#73 - 2012-06-05 10:34:48 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.


And shortening the training time from 25+ years to about 10 years is going to turn EVE into a theme park MMO.

I don't think so.


probably not,

but then you're gonna be whining that 10 years is too long ...
and then someone will whine that n years is too long...
and so on ...

There's honestly no reason to change it -- I mean, seriously, there's always something new for your toon to learn (hell, same thing happens day to day ...)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-06-05 10:38:28 UTC
Sobach wrote:
by your logic, why not just take it to the next step and eliminate SP entirely? Let's just abolish the entire training system and max everyone's character out, and when new skills are introduced to the game, everyone automatically gets them at lv.5 too! This way you won't "waste" ANY time training and could be having fun blowing things up!

Hell, while we're at it, let's make all the ships and modules free too, that way people won't have to make isk to afford ships, and thus they'll be able to spend even more time having fun blowing things up! We can call this the CoD: Elzon1 Pwnz0r expansion!


or you can just htfu or gtfo of eve, either makes no difference to me.


Remember I said the highest SP character plus 1 month?

I didn't say I wanted to do away with the training system altogether in the beginning post now did I?

You mad bro?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-06-05 10:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Elzon1 wrote:
The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?

Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.

Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.

I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.

Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too...


There is no way to respond to this is a reasonable manner, so I'll just go with....

PFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHA

EDIT: Ok, I came up with a reasonable response. EVE isn't so much about skills, it's how you use your brain. An idiot could have everything at L5 & still be a terrible player. A noob can have a bunch of stuff at L2-3 & still be awesome. Sure, the skills help, but that's only a small part of the game.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-06-05 10:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobach
Elzon1 wrote:
Remember I said the highest SP character plus 1 month?

I didn't say I wanted to do away with the training system altogether in the beginning post now did I?

You mad bro?


Just calling out the bullshit as I see them Lol

Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!"


edit:

let's entertain your proposal for a minute. The current highest SP character is Dr Caymus, who should be around the 200mil sp mark. Going by your system, it would cut training time by more than 50 percent, and at the same time effectively doubling the amount of skillpoints for every player (and probably make dr caymus quit because he can't train stuff anymore, lol). Anyone who can remotely be considered a veteran player will be able to instantly max out a boatload of skills, and long term vets will get so much new SP that they can probably max out all the ship/combat skills they care to (or don't care to) have, and a healthy dosage of industrials just for lulz. If you don't see a problem with that, well...

then again, since this instant-gratification is what you're after, you probably DONT see any issue with that.
Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-06-05 10:47:50 UTC
Skill system is fine, it's not our fault your ADD wants to jump around training everything. Arrow
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2012-06-05 10:57:20 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:

All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general.


No.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-06-05 11:05:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Elzon1
Sobach wrote:
Just calling out the bullshit as I see them Lol

Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!"


Remember in the beginning post I made strict limits to the general concept preventing any missteps (ex. a step further).

What reason was there for getting rid of the learning skills? Because it's good? Because CCP said so?

Moves like that can improve things in EVE for everyone.

Oh and remember removing the learning skills actually shortened the overall training time? BLASPHEMY right?

Oh and they reimbursed the SP when they did get rid of them, remember?

They did it once, they can do it once more now can't they?
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#80 - 2012-06-05 11:05:55 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:


Gerald Taric wrote:
Therefore: No, the time is not too long.


Ah, then you would prefer it to be longer then? How about 50 years? 100 years?

See what I am getting at there? Making training take less time seems better than making it longer, no? Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton?



That is, quite frankly, one of the most idiotic comments I've seen on here. No-one else here is complaining about training taking too long, which is why we do not think it needs reducing in anyway, this does not mean we feel it needs to be increased.

Quit making ridiculous statements and actually listen to what some people with an IQ above 100 have been saying to you. I think it was Brooks that explained it best. Training times are such that it forces people to attain some semblance of capability in one area of the game at a time before allowing them to move on, as per his example, when moving from Cruiser class to Battleship class.

Stupid idea is poorly thought through and stupid. Do not want, would not vote for. 0/10. Don't try again.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.