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Why can we only jump one system at a time?
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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#41 - 2012-06-05 09:32:32 UTC
Let me guess, you want a teleport system?

The Tears Must Flow
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#42 - 2012-06-05 09:36:06 UTC
Culmen wrote:
Also Black Ops and Jump Freighters can skip gates.


Sure, let me light covert cynos in highsec, heh.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#43 - 2012-06-05 09:43:39 UTC
Anna Shoul wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Its because people have gotten too dependent on being able to move all around Eve in a short time. Why people have this ideology that they need to move halfway across the galaxy is beyond me. If you localize Eve and have people more territorial you really won't have to move far to do what you want.


That would also be a viable solution to the are-we-there-yet problem, if it can be done. Right now, I don't see how, though, maybe you have an idea?

People don't move halfway across the galaxy just because they like the pretty warp effect, it's nice, but gets old after a few months. They move because there's something available at their destination which they need, whether it's cooperation or resources. The obvious direction to solve it is to make them need those resources less, which is likely to make chokepoints less interesting in general and kill too much activity. That doesn't appear desirable. The other obvious direction is making travel harder, slower or more costly, but that is likely to reduce activity even harder.

Ever notice that people tent to live near trade hubs in highsec?

Make local trade hubs more important, and Jita less important, and people move around less. There is VERY little you can't get locally in any given place, unless it is something that only spawns in say, lowsec or nullsec, which doesn't drive people to go out there anyway. Those things are actually the riches that are supposed to make living there worth it.

Make long distance travel in empire either take longer, or make it harder, and people will tend to not move around alot if they don't have to. They will trade at the local trade hub, and the dedicated traders will have a reason to keep those hubs stocked with their freighters. Added benefit, the prices for most things will go up a little, meaning that station trading is nerfed and real trading is buffed, miners make more, mission runners make more from their loot, and so on.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#44 - 2012-06-05 09:50:15 UTC
Anna Shoul wrote:
Anya Ohaya wrote:
CCP should have someone start popping some of the big regional links. Like the Jove, or Sansha or Sleepers.


If so, reducing the capital jump/bridge distances should go together with it. Otherwise, this will just nerf everyone who can't bypass gates already, not something you'd generally want.

The fourth Macaber prophecy in which “the appetite of nothing expands over the world” would do that, actually.

If you do this but don't nerf capship range, people would kill alot more capships, or cap pilots wouldn't use their full range.

Its not hard to kill a conventional capship, if it has no subcap support(thats the whole idea behind the titan nerf, after all) so the ability to project so far your conventional fleet can't catch up would be a liability, not an advantage.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Anna Shoul
#45 - 2012-06-05 10:00:25 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Make long distance travel in empire either take longer, or make it harder, and people will tend to not move around alot if they don't have to. They will trade at the local trade hub, and the dedicated traders will have a reason to keep those hubs stocked with their freighters. Added benefit, the prices for most things will go up a little, meaning that station trading is nerfed and real trading is buffed, miners make more, mission runners make more from their loot, and so on.


That takes care of resources part, but not of the cooperation part. What about something like small gang roams?
Luis Graca
#46 - 2012-06-05 10:17:41 UTC
Would it be awesome to fly a +500 man gang and magically teleport the fleet to a red home system

The only way it would be better would be the drama complaining after that
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#47 - 2012-06-05 10:20:50 UTC
Anna Shoul wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Make long distance travel in empire either take longer, or make it harder, and people will tend to not move around alot if they don't have to. They will trade at the local trade hub, and the dedicated traders will have a reason to keep those hubs stocked with their freighters. Added benefit, the prices for most things will go up a little, meaning that station trading is nerfed and real trading is buffed, miners make more, mission runners make more from their loot, and so on.


That takes care of resources part, but not of the cooperation part. What about something like small gang roams?

What about them? Travel in lowsec is already fairly hard, as is nullsec once you get out of blue space(why would you roam your own space?).

Making travel harder outside of empire wouldn't actually help anything. Its just the big regional superhighways, capital projection(which I already covered), and JBs(which are only useful if the owner lets you use them) which cause EVE to shrink. Get rid of the superhighways and most of the issue is solved.

If you think nullsec should have local trade hubs without a serious overhaul of the whole sov system, you should spend a month trying to keep a local hub stocked out here, and then you can talk about it.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Lexmana
#48 - 2012-06-05 10:32:59 UTC
There should be a gate fee in empire scaled by security level to pay for the gate guns and concord protection.
Millur
Blue Beret UFO Retrieval Team
#49 - 2012-06-05 11:09:56 UTC
Astro Jones wrote:
Yes, If i want to fly to Jita it's 8 jumps...takes to long and well it just sucks...

lol 8 jumps to long Roll

and the answer is no...

You cant arrange them by penis...
Anna Shoul
#50 - 2012-06-05 11:11:18 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Travel in lowsec is already fairly hard, as is nullsec once you get out of blue space(why would you roam your own space?).
Precisely, you'd be making it even harder. People wouldn't just be more territorial, they also would be more bored, never a good thing.

How about a more complex but generally more interesting solution:

1. Use the suggestion given here as the base. I.e. you can use one gate to jump through multiple systems along your planned route in one kick at extra cost. That gets rid of much 'are-we-there-yet'.
2. Make all jumps cost something otherwise as well, i.e. any single jump will also incur a gate fee, probably based on ship mass and sec status, ostensibly to support the gate network infrastructure. That creates opportunities for local trade hubs.
3. Make a multi-jump single-kick route interceptable anyway, by allowing a gate camp to break those routes for war targets in high sec and for anyone in low sec, by taking an extra action at a certain extra cost - like hacking into gate control which introduces an extra rule into the gate network computers for a certain time until the admins get wind of it and fix it.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#51 - 2012-06-05 11:22:19 UTC
Anna Shoul wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Travel in lowsec is already fairly hard, as is nullsec once you get out of blue space(why would you roam your own space?).
Precisely, you'd be making it even harder. People wouldn't just be more territorial, they also would be more bored, never a good thing.

How about a more complex but generally more interesting solution:

1. Use the suggestion given here as the base. I.e. you can use one gate to jump through multiple systems along your planned route in one kick at extra cost. That gets rid of much 'are-we-there-yet'.
2. Make all jumps cost something otherwise as well, i.e. any single jump will also incur a gate fee, probably based on ship mass and sec status, ostensibly to support the gate network infrastructure. That creates opportunities for local trade hubs.
3. Make a multi-jump single-kick route interceptable anyway, by allowing a gate camp to break those routes for war targets in high sec and for anyone in low sec, by taking an extra action at a certain extra cost - like hacking into gate control which introduces an extra rule into the gate network computers for a certain time until the admins get wind of it and fix it.

No, these all make space SMALLER. This just encourages things like Jita where we have most of the games economy in one place, makes station traders even more profitable, and makes it even harder to find/catch a target. Anything that allows skipping gates like that, even at a cost, means that I can hit a gate and I am gone, you dunno where I went.

The cure to 'Are-we-there-yet' is to discourage long journeys, unless you have a good reason. Space should be BIG, it should be DANGEROUS, and the players should be territorial.

If you want to explore, you should be prepared to explore, not teleport from one sightseeing spot to the next.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Anna Shoul
#52 - 2012-06-05 11:29:34 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
No, these all make space SMALLER. This just encourages things like Jita where we have most of the games economy in one place, makes station traders even more profitable, and makes it even harder to find/catch a target. Anything that allows skipping gates like that, even at a cost, means that I can hit a gate and I am gone, you dunno where I went.


Um. Excuse me, did you read the entire list?

#1 compresses in-system flight time, not space -- fees for a multi-kick route would be higher than the sum of single-jump costs for the entire chain. You can't catch a target in flight through system except in nullsec anyway.
#2 does exactly what you suggested, makes every single jump cost something, thereby making space larger.
#3 takes care of catching a target that is skipping gates in this manner quite certainly.

What exactly are you objecting to?
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#53 - 2012-06-05 11:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Anna Shoul wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
No, these all make space SMALLER. This just encourages things like Jita where we have most of the games economy in one place, makes station traders even more profitable, and makes it even harder to find/catch a target. Anything that allows skipping gates like that, even at a cost, means that I can hit a gate and I am gone, you dunno where I went.


Um. Excuse me, did you read the entire list?

#1 compresses in-system flight time, not space -- fees for a multi-kick route would be higher than the sum of single-jump costs for the entire chain. You can't catch a target in flight through system except in nullsec anyway.
#2 does exactly what you suggested, makes every single jump cost something, thereby making space larger.
#3 takes care of catching a target that is skipping gates in this manner quite certainly.

What exactly are you objecting to?

The fact that you apparently don't understand how those mechanics would actually be used, and only see how you think you would use them. People with isk would be completely uncatchable, and broke newbies would be the ONLY targets you could ever get, simply because, aside from the odd gatecamp willing to have to pay to catch targets, everyone would by screaming through at high speeds.

Oh, and making people pay to be able to catch a target is one of the most fail ideas ever. Not because people can't afford it, but simply because it is a kick in the nuts to PvPers(the core target demographic of this game) on principle.

Are you trying to kill EVE or something? Making people pay to pvp What?

Edit: and if you wanna compress in-system flight, fly an interceptor. You do realize different ships have different warp speeds, right?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Anna Shoul
#54 - 2012-06-05 11:48:56 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Oh, and making people pay to be able to catch a target is one of the most fail ideas ever. Not because people can't afford it, but simply because it is a kick in the nuts to PvPers(the core target demographic of this game) on principle.


Pay? ISK? Seriously? That would be silly. No, I was thinking of using a hacking module actually, which is also a cost, but of a very different kind.

But whatever, I see you assume way too much about what I'm thinking and what I want to discuss this, so I'll stop.

Tallian Saotome wrote:
Edit: and if you wanna compress in-system flight, fly an interceptor. You do realize different ships have different warp speeds, right?


You do realize that most of the in-system flight time is acceleration and deceleration, which always takes exactly the same time for all ship types, and the actual time spent moving in warp is miniscule compared to that for most systems except the very large ones, so it has almost no effect on total travel time, right? See here for details.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#55 - 2012-06-05 11:51:08 UTC
Anna Shoul wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Its because people have gotten too dependent on being able to move all around Eve in a short time. Why people have this ideology that they need to move halfway across the galaxy is beyond me. If you localize Eve and have people more territorial you really won't have to move far to do what you want.


That would also be a viable solution to the are-we-there-yet problem, if it can be done. Right now, I don't see how, though, maybe you have an idea?

People don't move halfway across the galaxy just because they like the pretty warp effect, it's nice, but gets old after a few months. They move because there's something available at their destination which they need, whether it's cooperation or resources. The obvious direction to solve it is to make them need those resources less, which is likely to make chokepoints less interesting in general and kill too much activity. That doesn't appear desirable. The other obvious direction is making travel harder, slower or more costly, but that is likely to reduce activity even harder.



This really is quite silly. What you are talking about is fundamentally altering the whole point of the game. Resources in EVE are distributed in such a way that in order to obtain them conflict becomes inevitable. The whole point of some stuff being "far, far away" is that it forces people to co-operate, to form alliances, see where I'm heading with this?

Things such as travel time, distance and resource distribution are fundamental to the structure of EVE and should not be messed with for a reason as pathetic as "OHMERGERD ARE WE THERE YET???"

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#56 - 2012-06-05 12:11:27 UTC
Anna Shoul wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Oh, and making people pay to be able to catch a target is one of the most fail ideas ever. Not because people can't afford it, but simply because it is a kick in the nuts to PvPers(the core target demographic of this game) on principle.


Pay? ISK? Seriously? That would be silly. No, I was thinking of using a hacking module actually, which is also a cost, but of a very different kind.

But whatever, I see you assume way too much about what I'm thinking and what I want to discuss this, so I'll stop.

Clarify your 'Cost' then. Anything other than time would be a cost ultimately measured in isk, since resources can be bought.

Quote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Edit: and if you wanna compress in-system flight, fly an interceptor. You do realize different ships have different warp speeds, right?


You do realize that most of the in-system flight time is acceleration and deceleration, which always takes exactly the same time for all ship types, and the actual time spent moving in warp is miniscule compared to that for most systems except the very large ones, so it has almost no effect on total travel time, right? See here for details.

I am quite familiar with warp mechanics, and in any system where the time it takes to cross it are a factor, anything but a 13AU/sec speed is gonna have plenty of time at max speed for that max speed to become relevant.

I can almost guarantee I have crossed a larger variety of systems than you since I actually enjoy being a space tourist. Travel is a large part of that. My CEO has given up on cussing at me about being where I should be, since I demonstrably can travel fast enough to be there in very very short order.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#57 - 2012-06-05 12:13:46 UTC
Why are you even discussing this still? Shortening travel times should not happen and won't happen. End of.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2012-06-05 12:20:15 UTC
Because the EVE universe is small enough as it is.
If anything, it could use more space (or more separation of space).
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#59 - 2012-06-05 12:24:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Because the EVE universe is small enough as it is.
If anything, it could use more space (or more separation of space).


I would agree with the need for more separation, but not the need for more actual space, I think we have enough of that already.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#60 - 2012-06-05 13:06:11 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I would agree with the need for more separation, but not the need for more actual space, I think we have enough of that already.
Fair enough. The effect is much the same.

I'm not saying there should be more in that space, just more… well… space. Having more stuff in it would just reduce that space, so that would be kind of counter-productive.