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New dev blog: Next Unified Inventory Update

First post First post
Author
Susan Delgad0
Drop the Soap
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#721 - 2012-06-13 18:57:54 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
You know what I'm really enjoying right now? The high levels of interest in our development processes. I was slightly concerned that only 3 people would read the blog Big smile

I warn you though, it's going to be pretty dry!


I'm one of the ones that doesn't post a lot in the forums goliath, and indeed I cancelled my subs over this as it has seriously impacted my industry toons to the point where I spend 1-2 hours doing what used to take me 20-30 minutes a day. I posted in some of the older threads on this but this is my first and probably only post in this thread. Not posting to ***** but to say that I'll look forward to this devblog.

I think a large part of the frustrations here among the "vocal minority" is the lack of transparency into your internal processes and reasoning behind these choices in features. While I can't speak for everyone, I know that if this is done right it can certainly go a long way into helping me reconsider my recent decisions regarding the game. So please, take your time and detail this out for us, many people in the community are involved in the industry to varying degrees and what you think is dry might actually turn out to be quite enlightening for a larger portion of the player base than you think.

It also might help you guys refine process internally as I have read lots of valid ideas in these UI threads on iteration, QA and development process that I could certainly apply to my own company.

Best,

~s~
Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University
#722 - 2012-06-13 19:04:53 UTC
Kasriel wrote:
the results would certainly be interesting, and i think it's quite sad that anybody even remotely involved in this (who was also around last year at least) would not trust CCP not to doctor those numbers. at this point only a completely neutral party would be acceptable to hold a poll such as that, maybe somebody should ask Chribba?


The only problem with asking Chribba to run such a poll is that he isn't neutral in this matter.

He tweeted a few days ago that he can't get used to UI and wants the option to have the old one back.

CEO Dust University

CPM 1&2 Member

www.twitter.com/DennieFleetfoot

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#723 - 2012-06-13 19:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
new poll with updated feature name (for distribution outside of this forum, please don't re-vote on this one)

http://gopollgo.com/is-unified-inventory-in-eve-inferno-expansion-better-than-the-old-inventory

Please spread the word!
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#724 - 2012-06-13 20:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
CCP Goliath wrote:

EDIT: "(no gameplay since 22.05.2012)" All this does is tell me that you haven't tried out any of the fixes and are just soapboxing.


And all your comments tell me that you do not understand the problem. It is the UI. I tried it at 22.05. but it was and currently IS terrible. I log in but do not play. I try this crap again and again but it still keeps beeing useless crap.
Not playing does not mean not logging in or trying. Roll

You are a CCP. You should be able to find out what I am doing (if it is the right UI). Now try to find out how often I logged in after 22.05.2012 and furthermore find out what I have done with this time.

If you like to play with statistics please have a look at the amount of unsubbed accounts since Inferno. Sure you can claim that there are other reasons to cancel an account. But maybe it could have something to do with this UI. To be fair: I do not know the exact amount of unsubbed accounts.
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#725 - 2012-06-13 20:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
Rrama Ratamnim wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
At absolutely no point should any hard working developer have to suffer a personal attack for doing the oh-so-terrible-thing of communicating with their customers or changing a feature in a game. Your behaviour in the Inferno 1.1 Sisi Feedback thread was atrocious which is why your posts were deleted. You didn't bring anything but ranting and namecalling to the table, and this is why you didn't get anything constructive.

Your comment about majority is way off. This thread has 113 unique users posting in it. It's called a vocal minority and is very common on forums, and it makes it seem like far more people are angry if you get a 33 page threadnaught going, but the average posts per user in this thread is 4, and 10% of the total posts in it have been made by one user. Approximately 45% of the total posts have been made by the top 10 posters in the thread, of who I am one. Someone trolling our devblog opening is not an indication of "the mood of many players at present". I don't debate that there is a number of people who are disaffected at the moment, but your estimation of their percentage of the player base is grandly overstated.

EDIT: "(no gameplay since 22.05.2012)" All this does is tell me that you haven't tried out any of the fixes and are just soapboxing.


SLAM! Lol, and about damn time, it seems to always be a select subset of people every f*cking time theres a feature release that are just purely bitching nonstop with no constructive criticism....

And then we get people wondering why we have no f*cking devblogs, no f*cking dev to player discussions, its because EVERY TIME THEY SAY SOMETHING THIS SUBSET IS CASTRATING THEM!

For the love of god file bug reports, drop notes on your thoughts on changes, and tweaks that have been made, and maybe even the suggestions, why the hell is there call for peoples jobs and other personal attacks, and **** its rediculous!

For the love of god i work for an ISP and i've had a$$hole customers that have come in and got upset but even they later apologize, this group just is insanely poor mannered and idiotic, bitching and RANTING isn't going to result i anything but Goliath having to ban and erase more people and threads...

how about people follow the awesome eve motto of HTFU!


That said, Goliath any update when we're gonna get any devblogs on new modules, and new stuff in the pipeline?


File Bug reports? I have given up to file bug reports. My last bug report is open since 2011.09.10 06:28. It is worthless to try to give feedback to this Dev or BughHunter Team, if the problem is more than just a wrong description of an implant. They deny a problem even if you have pictures. BTW.. CCP Goliath was also involved in this bug report. Big smile
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#726 - 2012-06-13 20:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
First, I LIKE the new Unified Inventory. The issue is that the user friendliness is very low at the moment in terms of easy and consistent.

Second, there is a SERIOUSLY annoying defect with double clicking a container to access it. It opens your Ships Cargo instead of the container in a new window. Has this been acknowledged yet?

You need to be focusing on reducing the number of clicks it takes to get to somewhere. Looking at your setup, it might seem it's less clicks, but it's not.

In the right click contextual menu an "Open Cargohold in New Window" option next to "Open Cargohold" would go a LONG way for some people




THREE SIMPLE THINGS TO MAKE THE UNIFIED INVENTORY LESS OF A HASSLE :

ONE. Collapsed by Default

Please, all the hangars are always "uncollapsed" when you open the inventory or expand the side inventory. It is REALLY inconvenient to have to close all of the "Ship hangar", "Item Hangar", "POS Stuff", etc to get to where you want to go. Just let them always be collapsed, and I'll open the ones I want. Remembering the setting may seem "smart", but when I have to go to another part of my inventory, it sucks.

EXAMPLE : I have over 50 ships and I can't get to the item hangar containers easily because the ship hangar is on a level above that. So I MUST collapse the ship hangar to get to my item hangar. Stop that. You're not doing us a favor of saving us any clicking.


TWO. Double Clicked My Ship, ARGH!

Double Clicking on a Ship you're in the window does nothing. Let it open the cargo of the ship I'm in when I double click it. Also, let me SHIFT+Double Click on a ship I'M NOT IN to open carge and don't let me get into the ship. This way I can open ships from my ship hangar with just a double click + shift

EXAMPLE : I always try and open my ship hangar by double clicking on the Ship, or another ship. instead I get INTO the ship, which is really frustrating because now I have to find my other ship to get back into it.


THREE. Be Consistent

Double Clicking On One thing Opens a new window, double clicking on another opens it in the side menu, double clicking on a ship gets you into the ship, shift clicking this opens it with a side panel, double clicking that opens it without one. You've gotten so caught up between what the players "want" and your initial plan, that we're in the middle of stuff just acting weird still.

EXAMPLE : Double clicking a container in my Item Hangar opens it in a new window. I thought that's why we have the unified Inventory? SO I don't HAVE to open a new window. But now, shift double click doesn't just move into the container and opens a new window WITH a side panel. So, I'm just scratching my head because you've just confused the hell out of what and how I'm supposed to use this thing. Pick a plan and find ways around the design challenges without having 3 different functions for the same thing.


This will go a LONG WAY to a less hassling experience in the UI. There is a lot of other things to do, but these should be pretty easy to implement in the next iteration while you figure out some of the more in depth things to do.

Where I am.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#727 - 2012-06-13 20:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
CCP Goliath wrote:

That isn't how I gauge reaction, I just wanted to prove a point that metrics > hyperbole. I also didn't say they were a small group, I said they were a minority - big difference.


I dont know a single person who prefers this new UI to the old one. I know a good number that arnt that bothered. I know even more who think its worse than the old ai and a significant number of those think its bad or terrible.

Dont get me wrong, i like the idea. Unfortunately, even executed perfectly its always going to be more mouse clicks, time and attention to do the simplest of tasks. This is not excellence.

Its a case of, right idea, wrong place for it.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#728 - 2012-06-13 20:29:58 UTC
Can we please have a UI Tutorial Video after most of the major changes have been made?
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#729 - 2012-06-13 20:30:35 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
The poll can't just be a yes no. Only you super angry in the minority think the tree view is bad.

It can be closed even. So if the implementation of it was good, you could just close the tree view and use the neocom or in space buttons to ignore it. Like in any modern OS UI, the tree view isn't mandatory, but it is useful when you don't want 50 windows open. Issue with current UI is assumes that because we didn't like having 14 windows open, we wouldn't want 3. Which is silly because this new tree view opened with 2 other windows is amazing. Hopefully we'll see another update to make the UI bearable

Dream Five wrote:
new poll with updated feature name (for distribution outside of this forum, please don't re-vote on this one)

http://gopollgo.com/is-unified-inventory-in-eve-inferno-expansion-better-than-the-old-inventory

Please spread the word!


lol 17 votes for the new UI from iceland, lol at land map

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#730 - 2012-06-13 20:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
hey wait.... I have an idea.... one second

http://eve-files.com/dl/255291

Bam, there.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Rock Kicker
Full Bore Inc
#731 - 2012-06-13 21:20:55 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
You know what I'm really enjoying right now? The high levels of interest in our development processes. I was slightly concerned that only 3 people would read the blog Big smile

I warn you though, it's going to be pretty dry!


Actually, thanks in advance for putting one together. I am quite interested in reading it. I've been a software developer for over 20 years (alas, business apps only, no fun stuff like games), mostly as a consultant. Even when I was in 'regular' employment it was small IT departments, where I was generally handed a list of 'build this' and left to my own devices. Will be an interesting read to see how things go on when you have teams of programmers involved.

The new UniFUBAR Inventory.  Where Clickfest rules and Usability fails.

Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#732 - 2012-06-13 22:02:31 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
..... I would remind you that while players do indeed submit bug reports and discuss issues on the forum, we also test extensively in-house. Just because bugs get found doesn't necessarily mean there is time to fix them. Please do not make assumptions or talk down about my hardworking, talented department.


OK this is classic Microsoft philosophy. I used to work for MS and this is a major reason why I refuse to ever again.

Microsoft joked about this internally as "Those are not bugs, they are undocumented features".

If you are testing a feature or product and it is full of bugs you have two roads you can take. You can kick it back to be fixed or sometimes you have no choice but to document the issues and let it go through.

In this case if you KNEW the system had bugs (and how could you not) and you "had" to release it, you should include these KNOWN issues in your release notes / dev blog. This will save at least some irritation on our parts and reduce the "spam" from us the "vocal minority".



Now onto a separate point: I am willing to accept that as QA it is not your place to speak to design / release decisions. Fine. But when the questions / rants coming from the "vocal minority" (can you tell that I find that insulting) are primarily related to this then it would A) be a good idea for you not to try and address them if you can't / won't answer them and far more importantly B) someone who CAN speak to these issues SHOULD get on and answer them.

As many others have posted, those of us who do post here, speak to a LOT of people. I know that every single day I get on my TS server and hear people in my alliance swearing and cursing like sailors about this new UI. I hear the same from our allies and friends in game. I have yet to run into even one person in game who is not severely irritated by this UI. Most people in my alliance know I have posted here as I have told them and sent the links in game so they could read. This eliminates the need for most of them to post as my feedback is a combination of everything I hear from them and directly experience myself.


Finally, we get irritated and mob like when our questions are ignored or not answered or when we perceive we are being marginalized or condescended to. If you, or soundwave, or any other dev can not speak to some of the PRIMARY issues and questions being raised here, please get someone who can speak to those things to get on and respond. In the absence of GOOD information we have only ourselves and the information we post to work with and feed off of.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2012-06-13 22:07:40 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
The poll can't just be a yes no. Only you super angry in the minority think the tree view is bad.

It can be closed even. So if the implementation of it was good, you could just close the tree view and use the neocom or in space buttons to ignore it. Like in any modern OS UI, the tree view isn't mandatory, but it is useful when you don't want 50 windows open. Issue with current UI is assumes that because we didn't like having 14 windows open, we wouldn't want 3. Which is silly because this new tree view opened with 2 other windows is amazing. Hopefully we'll see another update to make the UI bearable

Dream Five wrote:
new poll with updated feature name (for distribution outside of this forum, please don't re-vote on this one)

http://gopollgo.com/is-unified-inventory-in-eve-inferno-expansion-better-than-the-old-inventory

Please spread the word!


lol 17 votes for the new UI from iceland, lol at land map


It must be a regional anomaly...perhaps the geomagnetic effect of all that volcanic activity :)

Seriously, though, it's only unbearable because of the way it was rather promiscuously inserted into the UI.

If we had all the old actions available, and they all brought up windows in the same way, and those windows were Unified Inventory windows, I think everybody would be happy, even with the few bugs sprinkled here and there.

If the Unified Inventory system were integrated with Assets as well, and you could thereby find all your stuff -- I'd be jumping up and down and screaming and looking for some developer to hug. Well, no, don't worry, I'm a bit less demonstrative than that, your developers are safe, but I'd be one happy gate-camper. Well, no, your gates are safe, too,but you get the idea.

I'd be pretty happy.

Somebody really lost track of the ball at that point in the design, but otherwise, I like it just fine.

[Insert usual gripe about the forum losing posts.]
Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#734 - 2012-06-13 22:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Acks
ZaBob wrote:

Seriously, though, it's only unbearable because of the way it was rather promiscuously inserted into the UI.

If we had all the old actions available, and they all brought up windows in the same way, and those windows were Unified Inventory windows, I think everybody would be happy, even with the few bugs sprinkled here and there.

If the Unified Inventory system were integrated with Assets as well, and you could thereby find all your stuff -- I'd be jumping up and down and screaming and looking for some developer to hug. Well, no, don't worry, I'm a bit less demonstrative than that, your developers are safe, but I'd be one happy gate-camper. Well, no, your gates are safe, too,but you get the idea.

I'd be pretty happy.

Somebody really lost track of the ball at that point in the design, but otherwise, I like it just fine.



I agree completely with this. Had this been implemented FIRST for ASSETS and then MAYBE later for everything else it would have been a lot better. Also if we had the "new" without losing the core "old" features (direct buttons, static compact windows etc) the rage would be far less.

This new UI COULD have been a major win for CCP. It is however, most certainly not right now.
Zelman Axe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#735 - 2012-06-13 22:34:28 UTC
I have been waiting for only 1 question to be answered

WHY WAS THE OLD UI CHANGED to NEW UI when the old one worked perfectly well ?
Dragonzchilde
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#736 - 2012-06-13 23:17:46 UTC
Zelman Axe wrote:
I have been waiting for only 1 question to be answered

WHY WAS THE OLD UI CHANGED to NEW UI when the old one worked perfectly well ?



cause ccp are retards that use resources on things that aren't broken, then manage to break it and deny there is an issue.


numerous issues have been pointed out but CCP still prefers ******* with useless things.


in the meantime .... and according to eve offline, numbers keep dropping.

Dragonzchilde
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#737 - 2012-06-13 23:25:42 UTC
Gainard wrote:
Off topic, but deemed - by me - to be neccesary:

I wish to express my gratitude to Goliath for listening in and replying to all the complaints even though he is not responsible for the problems and subject to some abuse he does not deserve.

I might explain some of the abuse by the sheer lack of respone we have received so far concerning our complaints. But lets not forget we are talking with a real person with real feelings, who is in defense of a problem he did not create.

So please everybody, try to stay fair. You, as I, may not be satisfied with all of the replies - but we should honor the fact that there is someone to at least listen to us. That is much better than in a lot of other threads where there is no reply at all.

So please give Goliath a break and try to reason without abuse. As for me: mea culpa, do as I say, not as I do Blink



If he has nothing to do with the issue than he shouldn't be replying either.

CCP messed up again, sending one in the field that has no power to change anything is like .. really helpful What?

there was no need to mess around with the inventory in the first place, now they are giving arguments that rolling back is hard and complicated.

how about not touching the thing in the first part, nobody asked for it and the feedback on sisi was all negative ... still pressing the issue -> retards in charge

line em up, pull the trigger. It's about time they start working on the Sandbox instead on useless crap
Maul555
Xen Investments
#738 - 2012-06-13 23:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Maul555
It appears as though your UI is preventing me from opening any cans after I have started the warp process (but not yet entered warp). Please look into this.
makansutra
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#739 - 2012-06-13 23:46:05 UTC
I've given this a fair enough go, and its ******* horrendous!!!!! CCP get a grip and give us back the old system this plain doesn't work, constant shift clicking, lagging the **** out when looting cans, cans skipping between different cans...... pisses me off to use it. I'm pretty damn close to calling it a day playing this game, better stuff out there, to which i am turning to more!

Sort it out, ie roll back to the old system or i'm unsubbing - really simple!
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#740 - 2012-06-14 00:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dealth Striker
CCP Goliath wrote:
Dennie Fleetfoot wrote:
...

They would also never, ever dismiss people complaining about the same thing as a vocal minority. They would ask where is it that we're doing wrong and how can we correct it.

...This group of people, this 'vocal minority' have found and highlighted so many bugs in UI, you should be thanking them for showing how lacking your QA protocols are.

...

Now Goliath, you say you can't speak as to Sisi feedback. I urge you to go and read that original feedback thread and you will see that every bug fix you've had to do since inferno with UI could've been avoided if you'd acted on it. How much of yours, Soundwaves and others time could've saved?

...


You seem to be rather insulted by the term vocal minority, which was not my intention. I don't see what's insulting about the term but I apologise to you if you feel marginalised by it. To me, a vocal minority is just that - a group of people less than the majority that are particularly vocal in their feelings.

The entire point of these devblogs and feedback threads has to been to find out what's wrong so we can make it better.

As to the comments about bugs and my department, you are not well informed on our development processes, so I encourage you to read my upcoming devblog on the topic. I would remind you that while players do indeed submit bug reports and discuss issues on the forum, we also test extensively in-house. Just because bugs get found doesn't necessarily mean there is time to fix them. Please do not make assumptions or talk down about my hardworking, talented department.

Remember the difference between bugs and feature requests. Container doesn't open when clicked - bug. Container doesn't open in a separate window when clicked - feature request.



Sounds like CCP adheres to the very old corporate tradition of "Nobody complained so everything is great".

How about putting in a poll on whether you like the new UI or not, in the login screen where the annoying advertising is.
You get a good result there as you get your "clients'" feedback on the change.
Then u can spin the results as you see fit :)
Striker Out!!