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Debating between 4 ships for L4's

Author
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1 - 2012-06-04 17:02:14 UTC
I have been an Ishtar guy for years and years for L4's.
I have had success with the Ishtar for low sec/null sec plexing and ratting, and have loved the drones for semi-afk missions.

But, the amount of time I can play the game has been scaled back, some as a protest against CCP, some by RL.
I have shut down the rest of my accounts, so semi-afk missioning with drones is no longer useful, since I have no other accounts to flip to.

So, I have been kicking around the concept of getting into a BS for L4's.
That is, of course, until soundwave hammers L4's, like he did Incursions. (yeah folks, it is coming, his null sec buddies are screaming for it)

Anyway, here are the 4 boats I am debating:

Navy Domi (armour or shield based): This would be a pure DPS play, no looting capabilities.
Vargur (shield boost). Excellent DPS, excellent looting capabilities (but since looting / salvaging is hammered, is that worth it?)
Mach: Insane DPS, somewhat iffy tank, no salvage.
Rattlesnake (shield boost leaving lows free for drone damage units): Decent, but not great DPS, but awesome tank.

Opinions?

I fly both an Amarr and a Minnie agent, who happen to be 3 jumps away from each other, but both based in Amarr space, so see a lot of EM/Therm, which scares me a bit with regard to the Mach. BTW, I had a look at the Paladin, and was stunned to see how relatively poor the tank of the Pally was against EM / Therm.
Flakey Foont
#2 - 2012-06-04 17:07:24 UTC
If you are tired of drones, Vargur or Mach. Otherwise Navy Domi. RS is the most boring ship in the game.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-06-04 17:44:41 UTC
firstly, if i had to go down to one account and only run missions, i would either quit or go insane (or both). secondly, the mach's tank is more than sufficient for any lvl4, even if you decide against throwin some money into it. thirdly, the question whether salvaging is worth it is obviously not about the money (it's free extra income that you acquire while you're shooting) but about whether or not you're willing to bother with it. with the kill speed of a vargur/mach, you have enough on your plate just locking new ship and cycling your guns, if you don't mind having the extra hassle to loot and salvage, go for it.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#4 - 2012-06-04 17:59:40 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
firstly, if i had to go down to one account and only run missions, i would either quit or go insane (or both). secondly, the mach's tank is more than sufficient for any lvl4, even if you decide against throwin some money into it. thirdly, the question whether salvaging is worth it is obviously not about the money (it's free extra income that you acquire while you're shooting) but about whether or not you're willing to bother with it. with the kill speed of a vargur/mach, you have enough on your plate just locking new ship and cycling your guns, if you don't mind having the extra hassle to loot and salvage, go for it.


Well, I am reducing to one account since I am pissed with CCP, and want to see where the game is going before deciding on quitting completely. Running missions is a plan to grind enough ISK to keep only one account alive and the skill queue churning.
Currently, I have extremely reduced time weekdays, and more of a weekend warrior, so most other ISK generation plans are off the table anyway.

And do you tank the mach by speed-killing?
I did not think the mach's shield boosting tank did well against neuts and lasers?

As for the salvaging, do Vargurs kill slow enough to allow time for salvaging as the guns blaze, or is it something done post killing?

And lastly, what kind of ISK investment would I be looking at for a Mach or Vargur.
I don't need specific fits, just a round number ISK wise for mods and rigs.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5 - 2012-06-04 22:52:56 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
As for the salvaging, do Vargurs kill slow enough to allow time for salvaging as the guns blaze, or is it something done post killing?


can kill and salvage at the same time. I usually just grab the most convenient largest wrecks and ignore the rest.

and I too like the ishtar, although can still rock that and read a book or whatnot.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-06-05 00:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And do you tank the mach by speed-killing?
I did not think the mach's shield boosting tank did well against neuts and lasers?

with decent skills and implants we're talking 1kdps with over 70km falloff, so yea dps-tanking is a serious part of the mach business. as for the tank, many people fly with a highend deadspace medium booster but you can also run xl-booster + cap booster to be on the safe side. if you fit an ab and keep transversal up, you can mitigate laser damage significantly, so no worries.

Quote:
As for the salvaging, do Vargurs kill slow enough to allow time for salvaging as the guns blaze, or is it something done post killing?

as the guy above me said, you can pick through the juicy BS wrecks while shooting and leave the small ones out so that it won't slow you down.

Quote:

And lastly, what kind of ISK investment would I be looking at for a Mach or Vargur.
I don't need specific fits, just a round number ISK wise for mods and rigs.

if you have the skills for large T2 autocannons, you can fly a complete t2 fit on both. investing ~1bil into faction gyros, hardeners and shield booster will make your life somewhat easier but is not a must. so overall, if you want to be skimpy, you will fit into well under 1.5 bil for each of the two ships.

edit: if you do not have t2 projectile skills, i'd go for vargur with faction guns, they are not that expensive and you only need 4.

I should buy an Ishtar.

drdxie
#7 - 2012-06-05 01:29:26 UTC
Train caldari BS to 4 and use a NM. This beats a mach hands down for em/thermal week rats. If you can use T2 sentry's, use a RS. Can get 700dps from the drones alone. Active tank it so you can fit 3 drone damage mods, fit 1 sentry damage rig and 2 omni directional. The RS can easily be omni tanked, not needed, but I have bothering about switching hardeners. If you use these 2 ships, you can share a decent xl booster and be able to cover all damage types. I still however use a tengu for kinetik damage.
mach' s tank is speed and is fine btw, just make sure you cap stable with a 100mn after burner. pulse booster when needed. Lots of space for drones to deal with webbing scramming frigs. I have a heavy nos to help out when under pressure and turning off ab will give cap boosting a few extra cycles.

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#8 - 2012-06-05 02:26:42 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And do you tank the mach by speed-killing?
I did not think the mach's shield boosting tank did well against neuts and lasers?

with decent skills and implants we're talking 1kdps with over 70km falloff, so yea dps-tanking is a serious part of the mach business. as for the tank, many people fly with a highend deadspace medium booster but you can also run xl-booster + cap booster to be on the safe side. if you fit an ab and keep transversal up, you can mitigate laser damage significantly, so no worries.

Quote:
As for the salvaging, do Vargurs kill slow enough to allow time for salvaging as the guns blaze, or is it something done post killing?

as the guy above me said, you can pick through the juicy BS wrecks while shooting and leave the small ones out so that it won't slow you down.

Quote:

And lastly, what kind of ISK investment would I be looking at for a Mach or Vargur.
I don't need specific fits, just a round number ISK wise for mods and rigs.

if you have the skills for large T2 autocannons, you can fly a complete t2 fit on both. investing ~1bil into faction gyros, hardeners and shield booster will make your life somewhat easier but is not a must. so overall, if you want to be skimpy, you will fit into well under 1.5 bil for each of the two ships.

edit: if you do not have t2 projectile skills, i'd go for vargur with faction guns, they are not that expensive and you only need 4.


Yeah, I have 3 BS's to L5, Caldari to L4, and all large weapon systems to T2 levels, perfect gunnery support skills.
Skills should not be an issue.
Return on Investment might be a factor.

It is a tough call on the ship.
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
#9 - 2012-06-05 08:18:45 UTC
Navy Domi - 1330 dps with implants (EO-603, EM-803, SS-903, LH-1003) and reasonable price tag, I think ~1.2bil. So with shinies below similar price to Mach hull.

[Dominix Navy Issue, L4]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Power Diagnostic System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster
Pith A-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Pith A-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Pith A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Garde II x5
Warden II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Ogre II x5
Goran Konjich
Krompany
#10 - 2012-06-05 11:41:01 UTC
Jack Mayhem wrote:
Navy Domi - 1330 dps with imp...
Hobgoblin II x5
Ogre II x5


awesome fit imho

I'm a diplomat. Sometimes i throw 425mm wide briefcases at enemy. Such is EVE.

Kalli Brixzat
#11 - 2012-06-06 02:46:15 UTC
In my order of preference:

1. Mach: Stupid DPS...very nice tank. If you want to blitz, she's your girl. Nobody does it better.
2. Vargur: Kill, loot and salvage...at the same motherfuckin' time. How is this not a good plan.
3. Navy Domi: "Solid" deeps and tank. You can certainly do better, but not at this price.
4. AFKsnake: If you watch a lot of TV, this is your ship of choice.
Spineker
#12 - 2012-06-06 02:48:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Tengu is the only ship. Any damage type, fast, escapable from tardgankers, aligns quick, kills everything in sight, speed tanking is not as important when it has a nice little ace in the hole 2 second shield boost. However with speed tanking and SUPER long range missiles can kill any mission without even working hard. I know of very few missions (Worlds Collide) that I can not start killing as soon as I have control after warp.

DPS means nothing if it takes 5 mins to get in range.
Kalli Brixzat
#13 - 2012-06-06 02:54:29 UTC
Spineker wrote:
Tengu is the only ship. Any damage type, fast, escapable from tardgankers, aligns quick, kills everything in sight, speed tanking is not as important when it has a nice little ace in the hole 2 second shield boost. However with speed tanking and SUPER long range missiles can kill any mission without even working hard. I know of very few missions (Worlds Collide) that I can not start killing as soon as I have control after warp.

DPS means nothing if it takes 5 mins to get in range.


OP asked about 4 particular ships. But if we're tanking best mission runners in all of EvE, the Tengu is second only to the Mach. The Vargur is a close third, with a bunch of ships easily making a case for rounding out the top-5. I love the Golem's "paper DPS", but with the state of Torps, I probably wouldn't bother with one.
Spineker
#14 - 2012-06-06 03:31:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Spineker wrote:
Tengu is the only ship. Any damage type, fast, escapable from tardgankers, aligns quick, kills everything in sight, speed tanking is not as important when it has a nice little ace in the hole 2 second shield boost. However with speed tanking and SUPER long range missiles can kill any mission without even working hard. I know of very few missions (Worlds Collide) that I can not start killing as soon as I have control after warp.

DPS means nothing if it takes 5 mins to get in range.


OP asked about 4 particular ships. But if we're tanking best mission runners in all of EvE, the Tengu is second only to the Mach. The Vargur is a close third, with a bunch of ships easily making a case for rounding out the top-5. I love the Golem's "paper DPS", but with the state of Torps, I probably wouldn't bother with one.



I don't really care I told him the truth Mach has nothing on tengu. Who the hell would run a mach in low sec?



I ran a Golem and it absolutely out damagers Mach and tengu on battleships but the good thing is its drones killed everything else plus it can loot and salvage. Something Mach nor Tengu can do. Tengu is far better than a mach hands down I can and have flown them all and Mach is subpar.

Only person who states Mach is better is someone who can't run them all are has spent all their time training guns. Mach is a pain in the ass and fall off and optimal and trans and ammo cost makes it far below a Tengu. Mach is in no range better than a simple t2 Tengu. Too much work and it is useless against frigates when they get in range, I can kill frigates with heavy missiles interceptors are childs play with precision.

By the way a Mach can not out tank a Tengu. Simple fact.

Most of the 4 ships asked about are very subpar to a Tengu the only one that comes close is the slower more work Mach.
Kalli Brixzat
#15 - 2012-06-06 03:37:59 UTC
Spineker wrote:
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Spineker wrote:
Tengu is the only ship. Any damage type, fast, escapable from tardgankers, aligns quick, kills everything in sight, speed tanking is not as important when it has a nice little ace in the hole 2 second shield boost. However with speed tanking and SUPER long range missiles can kill any mission without even working hard. I know of very few missions (Worlds Collide) that I can not start killing as soon as I have control after warp.

DPS means nothing if it takes 5 mins to get in range.


OP asked about 4 particular ships. But if we're tanking best mission runners in all of EvE, the Tengu is second only to the Mach. The Vargur is a close third, with a bunch of ships easily making a case for rounding out the top-5. I love the Golem's "paper DPS", but with the state of Torps, I probably wouldn't bother with one.


Mach is subpar.


You, sir, are doing it wrong.
Spineker
#16 - 2012-06-06 03:39:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Spineker wrote:
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Spineker wrote:
Tengu is the only ship. Any damage type, fast, escapable from tardgankers, aligns quick, kills everything in sight, speed tanking is not as important when it has a nice little ace in the hole 2 second shield boost. However with speed tanking and SUPER long range missiles can kill any mission without even working hard. I know of very few missions (Worlds Collide) that I can not start killing as soon as I have control after warp.

DPS means nothing if it takes 5 mins to get in range.


OP asked about 4 particular ships. But if we're tanking best mission runners in all of EvE, the Tengu is second only to the Mach. The Vargur is a close third, with a bunch of ships easily making a case for rounding out the top-5. I love the Golem's "paper DPS", but with the state of Torps, I probably wouldn't bother with one.


Mach is subpar.


You, sir, are doing it wrong.



Doing what wrong? I had the perfect Mach and it was a pain in the ass compared to my Tengu.

Simple fact the mach is overratted.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#17 - 2012-06-06 05:43:31 UTC
Spineker wrote:
I had the perfect Mach and it was a pain in the ass compared to my Tengu.

Simple fact the mach is overratted.


I'm surprised. I found the Mach to be the best ship for the job to the point that it made already boring missions downright painful. There were only a small handful of missions where I'd break out another ship for some sort of marginal advantage.
Violet Giraffe
Space Giraffes
#18 - 2012-06-06 09:08:20 UTC
Spineker wrote:

Doing what wrong?

There are several schools of though for fitting/flying a Mach. I doubt you've tried every single one.
Jta Grl
2 Pingeons Incorporated
#19 - 2012-06-06 17:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jta Grl
Spineker wrote:
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Spineker wrote:
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Spineker wrote:
Tengu is the only ship. Any damage type, fast, escapable from tardgankers, aligns quick, kills everything in sight, speed tanking is not as important when it has a nice little ace in the hole 2 second shield boost. However with speed tanking and SUPER long range missiles can kill any mission without even working hard. I know of very few missions (Worlds Collide) that I can not start killing as soon as I have control after warp.

DPS means nothing if it takes 5 mins to get in range.


OP asked about 4 particular ships. But if we're tanking best mission runners in all of EvE, the Tengu is second only to the Mach. The Vargur is a close third, with a bunch of ships easily making a case for rounding out the top-5. I love the Golem's "paper DPS", but with the state of Torps, I probably wouldn't bother with one.


Mach is subpar.


You, sir, are doing it wrong.



Doing what wrong? I had the perfect Mach and it was a pain in the ass compared to my Tengu.

Simple fact the mach is overratted.


Probably because with a Mach, orbiting stuff then target + F1 isn't the only thing you have to do in PVE.
Jta Grl
2 Pingeons Incorporated
#20 - 2012-06-06 17:22:49 UTC
Everytime I read the word "Tengu" I hear it in a babyish voice inside my head. Thats happening for some time now.
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