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High Security Miner Survival Guide
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#61 - 2012-06-03 14:06:09 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
There are better things to do and better games to play that do not involve following a "Wall-Of-Text" of Rules to avoid ganking.

Game is fatally unbalanced.

Game is Over.


If you cannot manage to wrap your brain around fitting a tank to a mining barge then this really isn't the game for you.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#62 - 2012-06-03 14:06:16 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Are Hulks bad at mining? Why do they need a boost in utility?

Yes.

It doesn't mine much more then the Covetor which needs tank itself.

Covetor needs a Shield Tank, Hulk needs fitting.


The Hulk still mines more than the Yield fit Covetor when tank fit. QED, they are not bad at mining when tankfit.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
#63 - 2012-06-03 14:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
RubyPorto wrote:


If my 17 suggestions are a Wall of Text, you should see the PvP guids, Krixtal.

Anyway, You've given up on the game and quit (loudly). Why do you keep posting about a game that you've given up on?



To -----Edit-----| ISD Tyrozan----- off obsessives like yourself.

***
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#64 - 2012-06-03 14:08:49 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It means the best "choice" is to not use it. When the best choice for a ship is to not use it, it's a telltale sign something somewhere is wrong.


It's the best "choice" not to use it if you're mining solo in highsec and refuse to either partner up with others (or use an alt) to help your survivability. For anyone who doesn't fit into this really narrow way of doing things, it's still the "best" ship to use.


Let me tell you how many partners I need to do an L4 in a top extreme gank fit Maelstrom: zero.

It is a "baby vargur" fit I improved. With T1 ammo It melts everything so fast that the lock time is the limiting factor.
At the same time it can tank the whole full pocket aggro Worlds Collide hard room (1.5k DPS if I recall correctly) which is the second most damaging L4 in game (the Gallente version tends to bug and aggro on warp in).

I only needed it once when I was low skilled, but in case something really bad happens, I ALSO have a cap booster 800 without really giving up anything.

Did I say it has no faction guns? And the shield booster is a cheap-ish one?

Oh, guess how many partners do I have to take for low sec Tengu exploration? The same amount I need for Drake (a puny T1 BC) C3 WH soloing. The same amount I need for low sec carrier docking games.

Guess what can I do in my Vargur? Not only solo L4 but also salvage in one package.


Do you expect to survive in your LS exploration if you're semi-afk? That's what the tanked Hulk is for. Do you expect your baby Varg to finish a mission effectively while semi-afk?

The Tanked Hulk is to passively prevent ganks. There are several ways to actively prevent ganks that don't require any tank.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#65 - 2012-06-03 14:09:57 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
There are better things to do and better games to play that do not involve following a "Wall-Of-Text" of Rules to avoid ganking.

Game is fatally unbalanced.

Game is Over.


There are games like that. In EvE you have to follow a wall of text guide to do ANYTHING or you can bumble along and bark your shins on every piece of furniture until you figure it out.

If my 17 suggestions are a Wall of Text, you should see the PvP guids, Krixtal.

Anyway, You've given up on the game and quit (loudly). Why do you keep posting about a game that you've given up on?



Why do YOU breathe ?


I enjoy it. Are you suggesting I stop?

Why do you post here if you've quit the game?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#66 - 2012-06-03 14:49:06 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


If my 17 suggestions are a Wall of Text, you should see the PvP guids, Krixtal.

Anyway, You've given up on the game and quit (loudly). Why do you keep posting about a game that you've given up on?



To pi** off obsessives like yourself.


Why do you edit your posts? Can't you stand by your words?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
#67 - 2012-06-03 14:53:26 UTC
ob·ses·sion/əbˈseSHən/

Noun: An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.

***
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#68 - 2012-06-03 14:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
-----Edit------| ISD Tyrozan-----

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#69 - 2012-06-03 14:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
RubyPorto wrote:


Your Hulk has a Mining Laser permanently attached in its stats. No need to fit another one.


Are you seriously trying to justify 10 times the covetor cost with the equivalent of 1 MLU?
I can tank a fleeted covetor to survive a 0.0 NPC attack for the short time it takes for the rats to die. So tank is not a factor anyway.


RubyPorto wrote:

Not every ship needs to be the best (or even useful) in every situation.


So, a Mack is meant exclusively for 0.0 and with a fleet or is absolutely worthless. Got it.

Is it enough or do they also need a certain star aligmnent and a nice horoscope reading for the day? A sunny day but not above 25 degrees? What about humidity? Is 60% OK or will the paper tank melt due to it?


At the same time I can use a shoddy pilot with expendable mods in a 'cane for:

- PvP and be an hell good at it.
- Fleet PvP including sniper
- Gas harvesting (!)
- One of the most used mission salvaging ships before Noctis.
- PvE like a pro including hi and low sec L3 and L4 missions.
- FW
- Solo C3 WHs almost like a Drake
- Can fit a cloak for nullsec and still be viable (Been there done that)
- Solo hi and some low sec anoms.

I am probably missing some more.

I am not even listing a Drake or a Tengu, which put 'cane to shame for some things.


Now tell me again why a Mack has to be that sh1t and being barely better than an Hulk on its only super-specialized job.


RubyPorto wrote:

(By the way, you cannot balance a game while including a player run subsidy in your discussion, otherwise, I could offer Hulk insurance and then Hulks would be OP because they don't cost anything to lose)


Yes you can balance a game when any player factor can push mechanics far enough.
Gfidex posted about why Concord became what it is now and it was wholly player caused.
Also, as I posted yesterday, GANKING IS FINE, non tanking afkers should die and blah blah.
What's not fine is that it's possible for a corporation to completely take over multiple foundations of the only server of a MMO.
It should never be possible to earn so much that you can permatank expenses in 0.0, in hi sec, buy up ALL the Tech market when it tanked and still have massive investments in other key commodities.

As I said, in every PvP game you get the "you won" end screen and then you start a new scenario / battleground / whatever.
In EvE we don't have the ability to restart an instance so there have to be mechanics able to prevent total takeovers.

Since we don't have them, then the next counter-measure is to limit the amount of damage they can deal to the rest of the playerbase.
So yes, player run subsidy is the tip of the iceberg of a whole jungle of EvE design deficencies.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#70 - 2012-06-03 15:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
RubyPorto wrote:

Everyone else who solos cannot do so completely (or even semi-)AFK at the absolute pinnacle of efficiency (AFK brick Domi runs missions SLOOW)


Arty Mael = fire and alt tab during reload. I used to check my mining ships more often than I do when using that ship.
In fact I can play 5 arty Maels at the same time, it's almost impossible to be as efficient with Exhumers unless you only do ice.

Also, the pinnacle of efficiency has to be considered with regard of the task duration.
AC mael = pocket cleaned in 5 minutes tops, have to be attentive for 5 minutes to achieve the task. A mack takes less attention but needs 20 minutes for *1* fill.


RubyPorto wrote:

Do you expect to survive in your LS exploration if you're semi-afk?


Are you joking? Semi AFK in a damn globally visible belt in a ISK pinata?
Also, irrelevant #2, with buffer tank you will die AFK in LS (you can even AFK die in hi sec in 0.5 sec mission pocket quad rats spawn) so you need to switch to active tanking which makes the comparison about apples and oranges.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
#71 - 2012-06-03 15:00:22 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
ob·ses·sion/əbˈseSHən/

Noun: An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.


I play the game. I have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per my vision.

The people I'm arguing with here play the game. They have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per their vision.

I may disagree with these people, but I respect that they have a horse in the race.

You quit the game quite loudly. You have no interest vested in the game anymore. Why are you posting? Is it because the game still continually preoccupies your mind?



All this advice. It must indicate love.

***
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#72 - 2012-06-03 15:01:25 UTC
Little Brat wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Little Brat wrote:
In the big picture mining in hisec has declined almost by half.

May I ask for your source for this statement?


Indeed, you may ask. It was something I gleened from the forums, I recall something specific though I did not know exactly.

was porbablly a goon post anyway lol


It was from a Dev twitter post. The one guy who always posts the stats and stuff.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Singoth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-06-03 15:03:08 UTC
Best high-sec mining tip EVAH: don't mine in high-sec, move to goonspace.
Start mining in the shadow of the dragon, it's quite comfy under it's wings.

Less yappin', more zappin'!
Bossy Lady
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#74 - 2012-06-03 15:04:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

It should never be possible to earn so much that you can permatank expenses in 0.0, in hi sec, buy up ALL the Tech market when it tanked and still have massive investments in other key commodities.


So you want to hugely nerf hi-sec trading and industry, then?


Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#75 - 2012-06-03 15:08:15 UTC
Bossy Lady wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

It should never be possible to earn so much that you can permatank expenses in 0.0, in hi sec, buy up ALL the Tech market when it tanked and still have massive investments in other key commodities.


So you want to hugely nerf hi-sec trading and industry, then?




No, because they are already self balancing. Trading optimizes spreads, industry has its own competition.
But markets in EvE are not liquid (read: we lack about 700k players to make them smooth and strong) so they are easily taken over. Even the biggest markets can be taken over and this is not good as it could be used for server wide stranglehold.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#76 - 2012-06-03 15:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Are you seriously trying to justify 10 times the covetor cost with the equivalent of 1 MLU?


T2 Has Never been Cost Effective. It allows you to field more X per pilot at the expense of much more ISK per X.

Quote:

So, a Mack is meant exclusively for 0.0 and with a fleet or is absolutely worthless. Got it.

Is it enough or do they also need a certain star aligmnent and a nice horoscope reading for the day? A sunny day but not above 25 degrees? What about humidity? Is 60% OK or will the paper tank melt due to it?


It can also mine Ice in HS. You just need to be actively watching out. Your brain is your ship's tank.

Quote:

At the same time I can use a shoddy pilot with expendable mods in a 'cane for:

- PvP and be an hell good at it.
- Fleet PvP including sniper
- Gas harvesting (!)
- One of the most used mission salvaging ships before Noctis.
- PvE like a pro including hi and low sec L3 and L4 missions.
- FW
- Solo C3 WHs almost like a Drake
- Can fit a cloak for nullsec and still be viable (Been there done that)
- Solo hi and some low sec anoms.

I am probably missing some more.

I am not even listing a Drake or a Tengu, which put 'cane to shame for some things.


Now tell me again why a Mack has to be that **** and being barely better than an Hulk on its only super-specialized job.


T2 is Hyperspecialized and Never cost effective.

Quote:


Yes you can balance a game when any player factor can push mechanics far enough.
Gfidex posted about why Concord became what it is now and it was wholly player caused.
Also, as I posted yesterday, GANKING IS FINE, non tanking afkers should die and blah blah.
What's not fine is that it's possible for a corporation to completely take over multiple foundations of the only server of a MMO.
It should never be possible to earn so much that you can permatank expenses in 0.0, in hi sec, buy up ALL the Tech market when it tanked and still have massive investments in other key commodities.

CONCORD was buffed because CCP hadn't anticipated the tactics that caused the problem. HAG is using tactics that CCP explicitly has anticipated and endorsed on a scale that has 4 precedents (the other HAGs.

It's been possible for Years. GSF isn't the first one to do it. BoB did it as well. People whined about BoB as well. This is a player run game at all levels. BOB owned significantly more territory than GSF does. GSF's power will fade eventually.
CCP has seen this before.

The entirety of the GSF's payouts have amounted to 20b Isk. I'm going to limit this to talking about HAG since another Goon whine thread would be off topic here.

This is a player run economy. Players making fun is fine.

Quote:

As I said, in every PvP game you get the "you won" end screen and then you start a new scenario / battleground / whatever.
In EvE we don't have the ability to restart an instance so there have to be mechanics able to prevent total takeovers.

Since we don't have them, then the next counter-measure is to limit the amount of damage they can deal to the rest of the playerbase.
So yes, player run subsidy is the tip of the iceberg of a whole jungle of EvE design deficencies.


You get "you win" screens in PvP Minecraft servers?
You get "you win" screens in PvP WoW servers?
You get "you win" screens in PvP EQ servers?

Open world, sandbox PvP games do not have win conditions. If you want a PvP game with win conditions that let everybody start over, that's fine. They're fun. EvE isn't one of them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#77 - 2012-06-03 15:18:50 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
ob·ses·sion/əbˈseSHən/

Noun: An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.


I play the game. I have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per my vision.

The people I'm arguing with here play the game. They have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per their vision.

I may disagree with these people, but I respect that they have a horse in the race.

You quit the game quite loudly. You have no interest vested in the game anymore. Why are you posting? Is it because the game still continually preoccupies your mind?



All this advice. It must indicate love.


I gave no advice. I asked questions.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#78 - 2012-06-03 15:26:32 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Everyone else who solos cannot do so completely (or even semi-)AFK at the absolute pinnacle of efficiency (AFK brick Domi runs missions SLOOW)


Arty Mael = fire and alt tab during reload. I used to check my mining ships more often than I do when using that ship.
In fact I can play 5 arty Maels at the same time, it's almost impossible to be as efficient with Exhumers unless you only do ice.

Also, the pinnacle of efficiency has to be considered with regard of the task duration.
AC mael = pocket cleaned in 5 minutes tops, have to be attentive for 5 minutes to achieve the task. A mack takes less attention but needs 20 minutes for *1* fill.


The Hulk with 2 MLUII is the most efficient miner in the game. Aside from ganks, it can be run semi-afk.
The Gank Mach is probably the most generally efficient Mission runner/ratter in the game. It requires constant management to run missions safely or with any amount of efficiency.

The Dominix is a mediocre Mission runner, but can run enough tank to grind through with sentries while semi-afk.
The Hulk with 2 MLUII is the most efficient miner in the game. Aside from ganks, it can be run semi-afk.

Quote:

RubyPorto wrote:

Do you expect to survive in your LS exploration if you're semi-afk?


Are you joking? Semi AFK in a damn globally visible belt in a ISK pinata?
Also, irrelevant #2, with buffer tank you will die AFK in LS (you can even AFK die in hi sec in 0.5 sec mission pocket quad rats spawn) so you need to switch to active tanking which makes the comparison about apples and oranges.


So you don't expect to survive if you leave your top of the line Exploration ship afk.
Why should you expect to survive id you leave your top of the line Mining ship afk?

Why am I harping on AFK? Because tanking your Hulk is the option that allows you to safely AFK. You can also max your yield and actively fly it safely.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-06-03 15:56:55 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

As been demonstrated in the past, if an issue is constantly being brought to CCP's attention, they will eventually take action which usually involves swinging the nerf and buff bats.
DMC


1) What rules are Gankers breaking?

2) Where has CCP said anywhere in EvE should be safe (let alone HS)?

3) Why do you play a game that doesn't offer the content you prefer?

4) If you believe in something, why do you suggest that it's wrong to stand up and argue for it?


1) no where does DMC say gankers are breaking rules.
2) no where does DMC say "CCP said somewhere in Eve should be safe".
3) no where does DMC say that the game doesn't deliver what he wants.
4) no where does DMC say that it's wrong to stand up and argue for it.

why are you asking questions about what he didn't say?

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#80 - 2012-06-03 15:57:03 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


T2 Has Never been Cost Effective. It allows you to field more X per pilot at the expense of much more ISK per X


Interdictors are so bad, their tank is just a smidge better than a destroyer. Let's not talk about cov ops or command ships.

All so very gimped, they are those collector shiny thingies you leave hanging on the shelf.
Let's not mention Falcons, I mean, they are made for strict 0.0 combat with a foggy weather and 32 degrees temperature.


RubyPorto wrote:

It can also mine Ice in HS. You just need to be actively watching out. Your brain is your ship's tank


My brain is my wallet tank. It's just terminally stupid to EVER use a ship that can exclusively do 1 thing, has a fraction of the tank the other, multipurpose ship can get and even then, it got some low single digit percent better performance.

If this is not the textbook definition of a broken ship, nothing else is.


RubyPorto wrote:

T2 is Hyperspecialized and Never cost effective


Interceptors, cov ops, blockade runners and JFs beg to differ. Some of them let achieve stuff that would require 10 times the risk and time or group effort required in T1 variants.


RubyPorto wrote:

CONCORD was buffed because CCP hadn't anticipated the tactics that caused the problem. HAG is using tactics that CCP explicitly has anticipated and endorsed on a scale that has 4 precedents


CCP did not anticipate one corp could replace insurance, which CCP removed exactly to curb FFA hi sec gameplay (and ISK faucet).
CCP did not anticipate one corp could buy out whole game foundation markets for an indefinite amount of time.

CCP anticipated nasty, but not smart. This of course is a regrettable situation at best, because you can't nerf or punish smart.
At the same time, the continued orderly operation of important parts of the server is at peril.

Whereas a blob could incidentally slow / crash a node, it changes meaning when the same corp can permanently slow or crash a node. It's a DOS attack on parts of EvE.

Also Goon <> and even > BoB for damage potential. BoB where a group with a classic "hard core-elite raider" mentality leadership. They were not out to kill parts of the game.

BoB had competing enemies able to keep them busy and unable to take over. Who are going to take CFC down? They need to screwup something big by themselves again, but I heard this time they actually setup sov fee on a permanently fed wallet.


RubyPorto wrote:

You get "you win" screens in PvP Minecraft servers?
You get "you win" screens in PvP WoW servers?
You get "you win" screens in PvP EQ servers?


Yes you can get them. Once again, been there, lived that. Expecially dual faction servers (you forgot warhammer and DAoC and SW:Tor) tend to have one faction slowly taking over and then they end up perma-camping the others, who just all quit or move server.
After a while the winners get bored because now they are 10:1 and start quitting themselves. This phenomenon was so bad on some pure PvP MMOs to take their 800K day 1 playerbase down to today's 5k...

Even in WoW I played on a server (Genjuros) where Alliance all quit at a certain point and despite the free migration option none was so stupid to return and the server basically died.


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