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High Security Miner Survival Guide
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Alara IonStorm
#41 - 2012-06-03 11:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
RubyPorto wrote:


Every increase in yield or damage comes at the price of Tank. The Hulk is fine now. Fit for tank it can survive any Gank intending to make a profit and it still mines more than any other ship.

Umm.. No.

Every increase in shoving oversized tank comes at the price of Damage.

A Medium Shield Extender is not oversized in fact it is very basic and should be easily fittable to a ship like the Hulk.

800mm Plate fits fine on Cruisers, it is the 1600mm that makes you start reducing damage,
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-06-03 11:19:26 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
A Medium Shield Extender is not oversized in fact it is very basic and should be easily fittable to a ship like the Hulk.


And yet, its powergrid suggests otherwise! Funny that.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-06-03 11:20:17 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Little Brat wrote:
In the big picture mining in hisec has declined almost by half.

May I ask for your source for this statement?

Here.


holly mother of god. I always had the suspicion of so but seeing CCP releasing that info and not doing anythign about it is double WOW for me.Shocked
Alara IonStorm
#44 - 2012-06-03 11:20:32 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
A Medium Shield Extender is not oversized in fact it is very basic and should be easily fittable to a ship like the Hulk.


And yet, its powergrid suggests otherwise! Funny that.

Hence why it should be changed.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-06-03 11:22:05 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hence why it should be changed.


Good point! So quick, while I have your attention, are there any other ship hulls that you'd like to arbitrarily choose for module size upgrades or downgrades, or is it only the best mining ship in the game that caught that keen eye of yours?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Alara IonStorm
#46 - 2012-06-03 11:25:34 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hence why it should be changed.


Good point! So quick, while I have your attention, are there any other ship hulls that you'd like to arbitrarily choose for module size upgrades or downgrades, or is it only the best mining ship in the game that caught that keen eye of yours?

Lots of Ships which are getting buffed like T1 Frigates that got a buff last expansion and the upcoming Cruiser and lower Tier Frigate work. They are looking at a lot of ships both T1 / T2 and it is about time.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#47 - 2012-06-03 11:26:14 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
A Medium Shield Extender is not oversized in fact it is very basic and should be easily fittable to a ship like the Hulk.


And yet, its powergrid suggests otherwise! Funny that.

Hence why it should be changed.


If there's not a game balance issue, why should it be changed.

Hulks Can be tanked to tank everything they need to tank OR they can fit for max Yield OR they can split the difference and tank enough to dissuade most gankers.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#48 - 2012-06-03 11:27:36 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hence why it should be changed.


Good point! So quick, while I have your attention, are there any other ship hulls that you'd like to arbitrarily choose for module size upgrades or downgrades, or is it only the best mining ship in the game that caught that keen eye of yours?

Lots of Ships which are getting buffed like T1 Frigates that got a buff last expansion and the upcoming Cruiser and lower Tier Frigate work. They are looking at a lot of ships both T1 / T2 and it is about time.


So they're rebalancing ships that aren't used in order to get them used. Tell me, is the Hulk particularly rare to find flown in space?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alara IonStorm
#49 - 2012-06-03 11:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
RubyPorto wrote:

If there's not a game balance issue, why should it be changed.

Hulks Can be tanked to tank everything they need to tank OR they can fit for max Yield OR they can split the difference and tank enough to dissuade most gankers.

Boosts utility. With all of its utility in 2 rigs and 2 lows it is too much to fit a simple MSE.

Compared to the utility of PvE Combat Ships that make a lot more money it would be a reasonable bit of help.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#50 - 2012-06-03 11:35:24 UTC
@RubyPorto

Some of your rebuttals have a lot of sense but some don't.


RubyPorto wrote:

A hurricane, as one of the close range BCs I mentioned, doesn't need to make as many compromises. But it can't excel in any specialized role like the Hulk does.


This is bull and you know it. 'Cane is my top favored ship along with Mael. Both are incredibly common, 'Cane is just below Drake as degree of usefulness, versatility and overall power.


RubyPorto wrote:

The Hulk is a specialized yield machine. Tanking it takes some effort. *SHOCK*. Tanking a Cerberus (another specialized ship) is similarly nightmarish.


If it's a specialized yield machine then it should... you know... yield.
Every single of my PvE and PvP ships from cruiser to battleship have at least 1 damage mod, often 2, sometimes 1 tracking mod and THEN also the tank. ALL my combat ships have room for a DC2.

Only if I have to setup a super-bait mega-tank ship I forfeit the gank and bring in the tank.

An Hulk / Mack would not kill anyone if they could fit a MLU in addition to a DC2 and MAPC. No need for a MSE.
As of now, you have to tank an Hulk in the same identical way to survive in 0.0 and hi sec. No other PvE or industrial ship HAS to.

Even ignoring everything off the above, what about Macks? They are so worse than anything that they are pointless. I had a friend (actually I did merc for him) that shown me that he only used Hulks to mine because he had to give up to like 3-4% yield over a totally max yield Mack while still having 20K EHP on them. How much crappier can a Mack get? It's also meant for 0.0, I'd have horror shivers having to use a Mack in 0.0 even if all what'd hit it would be NPCs.



RubyPorto wrote:

You have to choose between max yield and max tank. *GASP*


No, you have to choose between sh!t yield and max tank and since 1 month ago you HAVE to go max tank.

A covetor comes to 14% less yield than a similarly equipped Hulk, but it's fully insurable, expendable.
It makes no sense that you HAVE to nerf an Hulk so much that it ALWAYS performs worse than the T1 ship and even then it will die statistically more often (because the covetor is not a subsidized target).

I mean, its like 10 times the cost, months and months in secondary skills to train (for shield / armor tank) and then it will die more or less as much and yields worse.

It means the best "choice" is to not use it. When the best choice for a ship is to not use it, it's a telltale sign something somewhere is wrong.



RubyPorto wrote:
Nomad I wrote:
Even Hulks with 30k EHP can be popped with only 4 catalysts. HighSec will never be save.


4 t2 fit Catalysts. 5 T1 Catalysts (5m Isk ea). Add Shield Gang boosts and you force the gankers to use 6 Catalysts, meaning the best case scenario is a loss (30m in catalysts to get 10m in loot, and 10m in salvage, assuming the miner's orca doesn't scoop first).

Add some RR to the field and that rises to 10-15 catalysts, or 6 Tornadoes at a massive loss.

Tanking prevents profit motivated ganks. Aside from eliminating ganking, nothing will get rid of the other kinds of ganks.


I remember another PvP game, where the best excuse to keep a class to suck was to tell that they did very fine with a dedicated tank and 2 dedicated healers.
Too bad everyone else could go around and solo.

You cannot pretend everybody has a compliment of fleet for hours to no end but also just for 30 minutes.

EVERY SINGLE other EvE activity can be soloed or done with alt (i.e. scout / cyno alt). Telling someone they will do fine once they get a fleet, gang links, a dedicated capital support ship and possibly some billions in implants and boosters is just dishonesty.
A tanked miner HAS to use a dedicated hauler so this puts them on par with others having to use scout or cyno alt.
All the additional burden is just that: burden.

Everyone becomes much better with gang links, crystal set, off-grid booster and whatsnot.

The result of this dishonesty?

It will kill those who cannot afford all the overhead.
Considering the amount of accounts per player is 2.5 and how 0.0 seccers mostly have multiple accounts, it means you will basically selectively nerf those who are already down and kicked.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#51 - 2012-06-03 11:35:25 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

If there's not a game balance issue, why should it be changed.

Hulks Can be tanked to tank everything they need to tank OR they can fit for max Yield OR they can split the difference and tank enough to dissuade most gankers.

Boosts utility. With all of its utility in 2 rigs and 2 lows it is too much to fit a simple MSE.

Compared to the utility of PvE Combat Ships that make a lot more money it would be a reasonable bit of help.


Are Hulks bad at mining? Why do they need a boost in utility?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alara IonStorm
#52 - 2012-06-03 11:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
RubyPorto wrote:

Are Hulks bad at mining? Why do they need a boost in utility?

Yes.

It doesn't mine much more then the Covetor which needs tank itself.

Covetor needs a Shield Tank, Hulk needs fitting.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-06-03 11:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It means the best "choice" is to not use it. When the best choice for a ship is to not use it, it's a telltale sign something somewhere is wrong.


It's the best "choice" not to use it if you're mining solo in highsec and refuse to either partner up with others (or use an alt) to help your survivability. For anyone who doesn't fit into this really narrow way of doing things, it's still the "best" ship to use.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#54 - 2012-06-03 11:58:47 UTC
Here is my list of survival techniques.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=115185

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#55 - 2012-06-03 12:06:50 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Are Hulks bad at mining? Why do they need a boost in utility?

Yes.

It doesn't mine much more then the Covetor which needs tank itself.

Covetor needs a Shield Tank, Hulk needs fitting.


A hulk comes with a built in MLU so its already better than a covetor without doing anything.
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
#56 - 2012-06-03 12:21:48 UTC
There are better things to do and better games to play that do not involve following a "Wall-Of-Text" of Rules to avoid ganking.

Game is fatally unbalanced.

Game is Over.

***
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#57 - 2012-06-03 13:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Snow Axe wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It means the best "choice" is to not use it. When the best choice for a ship is to not use it, it's a telltale sign something somewhere is wrong.


It's the best "choice" not to use it if you're mining solo in highsec and refuse to either partner up with others (or use an alt) to help your survivability. For anyone who doesn't fit into this really narrow way of doing things, it's still the "best" ship to use.


Let me tell you how many partners I need to do an L4 in a top extreme gank fit Maelstrom: zero.

It is a "baby vargur" fit I improved. With T1 ammo It melts everything so fast that the lock time is the limiting factor.
At the same time it can tank the whole full pocket aggro Worlds Collide hard room (1.5k DPS if I recall correctly) which is the second most damaging L4 in game (the Gallente version tends to bug and aggro on warp in).

I only needed it once when I was low skilled, but in case something really bad happens, I ALSO have a cap booster 800 without really giving up anything.

Did I say it has no faction guns? And the shield booster is a cheap-ish one?

Oh, guess how many partners do I have to take for low sec Tengu exploration? The same amount I need for Drake (a puny T1 BC) C3 WH soloing. The same amount I need for low sec carrier docking games.

Guess what can I do in my Vargur? Not only solo L4 but also salvage in one package.

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Superspyguy
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-06-03 13:41:33 UTC
only way to make money is do what goons do buy an npc boting program :P
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#59 - 2012-06-03 14:01:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

If it's a specialized yield machine then it should... you know... yield.
Every single of my PvE and PvP ships from cruiser to battleship have at least 1 damage mod, often 2, sometimes 1 tracking mod and THEN also the tank. ALL my combat ships have room for a DC2.

Only if I have to setup a super-bait mega-tank ship I forfeit the gank and bring in the tank.

An Hulk / Mack would not kill anyone if they could fit a MLU in addition to a DC2 and MAPC. No need for a MSE.
As of now, you have to tank an Hulk in the same identical way to survive in 0.0 and hi sec. No other PvE or industrial ship HAS to.

Even ignoring everything off the above, what about Macks? They are so worse than anything that they are pointless. I had a friend (actually I did merc for him) that shown me that he only used Hulks to mine because he had to give up to like 3-4% yield over a totally max yield Mack while still having 20K EHP on them. How much crappier can a Mack get? It's also meant for 0.0, I'd have horror shivers having to use a Mack in 0.0 even if all what'd hit it would be NPCs.


Your Hulk has a Mining Laser permanently attached in its stats. No need to fit another one.

If Hulks had a third low slot the standard fitting would become 3x MLUIIs (or Aeodes or whatever would make it fit). The fact that the basic assumption for yield is 2 MLUIIs is proof of that because we're mostly talking about "sacrificing yield for tank" as if a 2x MLUII Hulk were the basic mining yield. Or for total AFKers, the fit would be 3x Cargo expanders.

Right now, tanking your Hulk for null costs a teeny bit and lets you use 2 MLU2 because in Null you're tanking rats, and in High you're buffer tanking people. Active tanks generally fit easier than passive. You do not have to (nor do would you want to) tank your Hulk in the same way for null as for HS.

Macks can tank in 0.0 just fine, all you need is to work in a group. Drones ftw. Tanking vs NPCs is very different than tanking for PvP. They can also tank the rats in HS just fine. They could use some small buff, but nothing is stopping you from sacrificing some of that yield to fit a Hulk with Ice Lasers (and a Tank). Not every ship needs to be the best (or even useful) in every situation.

Pick the most appropriate ship for your situation.

Quote:

No, you have to choose between sh!t yield and max tank and since 1 month ago you HAVE to go max tank.

A covetor comes to 14% less yield than a similarly equipped Hulk, but it's fully insurable, expendable.
It makes no sense that you HAVE to nerf an Hulk so much that it ALWAYS performs worse than the T1 ship and even then it will die statistically more often (because the covetor is not a subsidized target).

I mean, its like 10 times the cost, months and months in secondary skills to train (for shield / armor tank) and then it will die more or less as much and yields worse.

It means the best "choice" is to not use it. When the best choice for a ship is to not use it, it's a telltale sign something somewhere is wrong.


If you are worried about ganking, then yes the best choice is not to use a Hulk. Ganking is a Player driven pressure. If Hulks really needed a buff, we'd see these Buff Hulk posts constantly, not just during Gank season. (By the way, you cannot balance a game while including a player run subsidy in your discussion, otherwise, I could offer Hulk insurance and then Hulks would be OP because they don't cost anything to lose)

When the Hulk came out Nobody expected anyone to fly them in HS, because the time to pay off the difference between a Covetor and a Hulk was so huge.

As for the Hulk v Covetor, a Tank fit Hulk gets (per Pyfa) 7.04m3/s per strip miner. A covetor with an MLUII gets 6.85m3/s per strip miner. So a tanked Hulk is still the best yielding ship in the game.

The best "choice" for Most ships in Most situations is not to use them. If the Hulk is not the right ship for your situation, don't use it. Seriously, there are tons of situations where the Hulk is the best tool fo

Quote:

I remember another PvP game, where the best excuse to keep a class to suck was to tell that they did very fine with a dedicated tank and 2 dedicated healers.
Too bad everyone else could go around and solo.

You cannot pretend everybody has a compliment of fleet for hours to no end but also just for 30 minutes.

EVERY SINGLE other EvE activity can be soloed or done with alt (i.e. scout / cyno alt). Telling someone they will do fine once they get a fleet, gang links, a dedicated capital support ship and possibly some billions in implants and boosters is just dishonesty.
A tanked miner HAS to use a dedicated hauler so this puts them on par with others having to use scout or cyno alt.
All the additional burden is just that: burden.

Everyone becomes much better with gang links, crystal set, off-grid booster and whatsnot.

The result of this dishonesty?

It will kill those who cannot afford all the overhead.
Considering the amount of accounts per player is 2.5 and how 0.0 seccers mostly have multiple accounts, it means you will basically selectively nerf those who are already down and kicked.


Everyone else who solos cannot do so completely (or even semi-)AFK at the absolute pinnacle of efficiency (AFK brick Domi runs missions SLOOW). You can Solo in HS with 2 MLUIIs in a Hulk, you just have to be active in some way. You can mine safely just fine solo (D-scan, etc). Or, with a lot of extra work, you can mine safely while semi-afk.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#60 - 2012-06-03 14:04:41 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
There are better things to do and better games to play that do not involve following a "Wall-Of-Text" of Rules to avoid ganking.

Game is fatally unbalanced.

Game is Over.


There are games like that. In EvE you have to follow a wall of text guide to do ANYTHING or you can bumble along and bark your shins on every piece of furniture until you figure it out.

If my 17 suggestions are a Wall of Text, you should see the PvP guids, Krixtal.

Anyway, You've given up on the game and quit (loudly). Why do you keep posting about a game that you've given up on?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon