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Warfare & Tactics

 
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New Mechanics and NPC's

First post
Author
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#101 - 2012-06-04 23:12:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Dopified wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I think the loss of target painters will help us against the minmatar rats as well.

But yeah for a "quick fix" ccp should just make everyone face the same exact rats - just pick one race.

The long term fix should be to do away with rats entirely and let the players actually fight in the plexes.


I agree with it but maybe think that we stay with each races damage type seperately. For some like gallente they can not tank Explosive very well and thinking of that for the other militia's as well but missile spamming for all will deal the damage. But that would be the only change maybe not the Same rats if you meant one specific damage type. If that is not what you meant then i aggree with one type of rat that has the damage dealt the same for that militia it is dealing too. But i would say we need some kind of resistence in the plexes for when some are not on.


Do you realize that you can solo every faction lvl 4's in a bomber? It's not just Minmatar & Caldari that can run solo bombers in missions.. Gal & Amarr can do the same it's just a bit harder and requires ships set up to do the job. Same with plexes..

Either way, plex NCP's changes do little to stop any "easy" mode plexing/mission farming because it then just requires a noob alt in MWD T1 frig to take aggro... If you want to fix plexing to stop noob alts from farming them, then just require all NPC's must be killed in order to complete the plex & then we can have more PVE in FW.

Even then 1 noob Thrasher can run any minor with a 3 day old skilled alt & kill all the NPC's.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
The Network.
#102 - 2012-06-04 23:18:20 UTC
Dopified wrote:
chatgris wrote:
Dopified wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
I do not really know what you guys are planning, but real problem is not the rats in plexes.

there is several bigger problems that needs to be solved before anyone can decide what kind of rats are in plexes.


I am finding it funny how caldari are the only ones who are resisting this topic and dont want it changed. Roll


They're still going to have by far the most useful rats (well, tied with Minmatar I guess, never ran against minnie rats) With the proposed changes a caldari guy can burn 30 off the rats in a caracal or drake, take no damage have no ewar and shoot with impunity.

A gallente guy will still have to deal with the incoming damage.

But the proposed changes are most definitely an improvement.


Let me ask you this Chat for a temporary fix. If all rats missile spammed like caldari rats do and you took the ewar away would this not be a good temporary fix until a long term solution could be found? EW NPC's removed or not who cares we are just talking about the incoming damage.

And yes i know and will say to CCP you would get even more grief for making the rats the same for all by being blamed Gallente bias. I would understand if you would not want to open that can of worms. Ugh


It would be a good temporary fix. It would damp down the afk plexing alts some and give everyone an even playing field.

I would prefer that all rats became the short range turret rats instead so that everyone could pvp in plexes without NPC interference just by burning off the button (rats should stay near the button), but that doesn't solve the afk frigate issue until they introduce the "kill all rats to close plex" fix.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#103 - 2012-06-04 23:20:38 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Dopified wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I think the loss of target painters will help us against the minmatar rats as well.

But yeah for a "quick fix" ccp should just make everyone face the same exact rats - just pick one race.

The long term fix should be to do away with rats entirely and let the players actually fight in the plexes.


I agree with it but maybe think that we stay with each races damage type seperately. For some like gallente they can not tank Explosive very well and thinking of that for the other militia's as well but missile spamming for all will deal the damage. But that would be the only change maybe not the Same rats if you meant one specific damage type. If that is not what you meant then i aggree with one type of rat that has the damage dealt the same for that militia it is dealing too. But i would say we need some kind of resistence in the plexes for when some are not on.


Do you realize that you can solo every faction lvl 4's in a bomber? It's not just Minmatar & Caldari that can run solo bombers in missions.. Gal & Amarr can do the same it's just a bit harder and requires ships set up to do the job. Same with plexes..

Either way, plex NCP's changes do little to stop any "easy" mode plexing/mission farming because it then just requires a noob alt in MWD T1 frig to take aggro... If you want to fix plexing to stop noob alts from farming them, then just require all NPC's must be killed in order to complete the plex & then we can have more PVE in FW.

Even then 1 noob Thrasher can run any minor with a 3 day old skilled alt & kill all the NPC's.




What set up do you use to run all the amarr level 4 missions solo in a stealth bomber?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
The Network.
#104 - 2012-06-04 23:26:59 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Do you realize that you can solo every faction lvl 4's in a bomber? It's not just Minmatar & Caldari that can run solo bombers in missions.. Gal & Amarr can do the same it's just a bit harder and requires ships set up to do the job. Same with plexes..


I would love to see what fit you think it is possible to solo a level 4 gallente fw mission (against caldari rats, and NOT the one where you have to pick up the item that can be done in a ceptor). Because those rats hit out to 100+, and the jamming is pretty intense too - it works over the tank of an ishtar/gila real good.
Dopified
Black Eagle5
#105 - 2012-06-05 00:14:01 UTC
Again the lack of posting actual fits or evidence backing up the claim of certain parties just goes to prove how missleading and untruthful some people can be. You cannot solo Ammar missions or Gallente missions in a Stealth bomber. And in such a way ccp has rewarded our missions with more lp to kind of make up for that.

Secondly you have fully admitted there is an advantage on your side but argue for us to work harder at this. It makes a difference if you can run all 3 plex sizes in one ship and not just minors in a low sp thrasher pilot. But it is still argued by you that this is fair. Again evidence for our side that there is an imbalance and one side is disadvantaged greatly. I would say if they allowed the gallente militia to speed tank like you all do i would have 3 alts running plexes at the same time afk who cares if they get popped numbers prove i can just put them back out cheap. And same can be said if i want to go pvp i can just plex easy by speed tanking and not wasting ammo till a find a fight. You say we can use two alts well NO ONE IS DOING IT because no one thinks in thier right mind paying for two accounts is worth plexing one plex at a time.

Please get real with your arguements and provide at least some kind of evidence to back your claim on THIS TOPIC not another. You want another topic then post it in a new thread I will answer you there.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#106 - 2012-06-05 00:42:54 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Do you realize that you can solo every faction lvl 4's in a bomber? It's not just Minmatar & Caldari that can run solo bombers in missions.. Gal & Amarr can do the same it's just a bit harder and requires ships set up to do the job. Same with plexes..


I would love to see what fit you think it is possible to solo a level 4 gallente fw mission (against caldari rats, and NOT the one where you have to pick up the item that can be done in a ceptor). Because those rats hit out to 100+, and the jamming is pretty intense too - it works over the tank of an ishtar/gila real good.


It's not think, it's can do.. I'm not here to do your work for yea, but I'm telling you they can be done solo in a bomber.

Also I'm totally watching Pon Chito a (2012.05.27) Gal alt of Russians in Kehjari speed tanking a Caldari major in a Dram..
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
The Network.
#107 - 2012-06-05 00:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:

I think the loss of target painters will help us against the minmatar rats as well.
No target painters/webs = "afk plexing incursus" for missile spam plexes.

Mutnin wrote:

Either way, plex NCP's changes do little to stop any "easy" mode plexing/mission farming because it then just requires a noob alt in MWD T1 frig to take aggro...
Spot on. Even if the T1 frig is another player instead of an alt it's still ridiculous.

The question everybody is arguing is whether you should be able to solo a L3 (or higher) plex with a 50k isk T1 frigate or a 5 million isk T1 frigate. To me there is little difference between the two. It's just as ridiculous that a L3 plex can be solo'd by an incursus as it can be solo'd by a T1 fit condor. The situation may be come even more absurd when CCP Ytter applies the 10%/level rep bonus to the Exeqeror (maybe a Vexor or Thorax, who knows, or perhaps one of the assault frigates) in 6 months.

IMO you should be able to solo a given plex (in a reasonable amount of time) with the largest sized (or best in class) ship allowed in the plex - nothing less. Since we can all build a great tanker out of a small, inexpensive ship, the only metric I see that would work well under current mechanics is forcing everybody to kill all NPCs before closing the plex.

As a point of reference, you can solo a L3 Caldari plex with an Ishtar by killing all the NPCs in about the same amount of time it takes to run the plex down. I don't believe an ishkur (L2 ship) can kill all the NPCs in that same amount of time. That's where we want to be, IMO.
Heredom
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-06-05 03:09:04 UTC
Very good thread with excellent feedback and honestly good answers from CCP.

Congratz, Dopi.

TY, CCP.

TY, adult players with decent coments and feedback .

And to the whining drama queens with PMS-like attitude ("you" must be one if this single sentence is now disturbing your temper), go play "Hello Kitty Online" or watch "Magic Poneys", IF your mommy lets you do it. 'Cause she might ask you first to say sorry to the CCP Devs that professionally answered in this forum thread.

/end childish posts, they're beyond pathetic. Not even considered bad trolls.

Done, signature edited with perfection!...

Grimfang Wyrmspawn
Doomheim
#109 - 2012-06-05 04:05:07 UTC
I don't see an issue with giving missile spam to all races plex NPCs once the EW is removed. Every race has them, at least at frigate level, and it would go someway to rectifying the imbalance.

There are one or two L4 Amarrian FW missions at most that you can do solo in a SB. I've had a good chuckle a few times when ex-Minnie pilots have come over and discovered this the hard way....
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#110 - 2012-06-05 04:21:09 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
chatgris wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Do you realize that you can solo every faction lvl 4's in a bomber? It's not just Minmatar & Caldari that can run solo bombers in missions.. Gal & Amarr can do the same it's just a bit harder and requires ships set up to do the job. Same with plexes..


I would love to see what fit you think it is possible to solo a level 4 gallente fw mission (against caldari rats, and NOT the one where you have to pick up the item that can be done in a ceptor). Because those rats hit out to 100+, and the jamming is pretty intense too - it works over the tank of an ishtar/gila real good.


It's not think, it's can do.. I'm not here to do your work for yea, but I'm telling you they can be done solo in a bomber.

Also I'm totally watching Pon Chito a (2012.05.27) Gal alt of Russians in Kehjari speed tanking a Caldari major in a Dram..


There might be only 1 gallente fw mission that can be solod in a stealth bomber and now i think about it i cant remember which it is... The bomber i use for the speed tank starts to get overwhelmed if rats spawn within 70km of its 160km orbit and that doesnt even have any torp launchers to allow the fitting of the tank. I could go ab but you need the mwd to get out of the high damage zone of the first spawn before it comes in for some missions... Claiming that SB's can solo gall fw missions really does destroy any credibility you might have thought you had.
Juan Rayo
Justified Chaos
#111 - 2012-06-05 04:50:20 UTC
Super Chair wrote:
I'd also like to add in that there should be LP for defensive plexing. Yes there will be alts doing that however it's probably the most anti-fun thing to do right now when you have to go to a backwater system, watch the plexing alts warp off and leave system then have to sit there orbiting the button in the middle of nowhere with no monetary incentive or PvP to be had.

Should it be as much as offensive plexing? Hell no. It should be 1/4 (or less) of what you get of doing a similar sized offensive plex. Why? Because otherwise attacking a system to destroy its infrastructure would be pointless because the defenders could just repour the LP back in for defending.


Fully agreed.
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#112 - 2012-06-05 05:55:47 UTC
Dopified wrote:
You say we can use two alts well NO ONE IS DOING IT because no one thinks in thier right mind paying for two accounts is worth plexing one plex at a time.


Ahem...Black Onyx Society on your side. One guy, 7 stabbed atron accounts. Apparently only because he hates Damar's guts and wants to waste his time (somehow I dont think he grasp the irony of the situation there...), not to mention Val has several accounts.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#113 - 2012-06-05 06:55:38 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Dopified wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
I do not really know what you guys are planning, but real problem is not the rats in plexes.

there is several bigger problems that needs to be solved before anyone can decide what kind of rats are in plexes.


I am finding it funny how caldari are the only ones who are resisting this topic and dont want it changed. Roll


They're still going to have by far the most useful rats (well, tied with Minmatar I guess, never ran against minnie rats) With the proposed changes a caldari guy can burn 30 off the rats in a caracal or drake, take no damage have no ewar and shoot with impunity.

A gallente guy will still have to deal with the incoming damage.

But the proposed changes are most definitely an improvement.


This true, so i do not see any point to change npc because it does not really solve anything.

As i said thing is not so simple, you have to make some other decision 1st and then think how npc is.
Whisperen
This is Serious Mum
The Initiative.
#114 - 2012-06-05 07:09:46 UTC
Drop the timers and give the npc's sansha AI with some more long range/fast tackle problem solved wheres my cookie.
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
The Network.
#115 - 2012-06-05 07:15:19 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

There might be only 1 gallente fw mission that can be solod in a stealth bomber and now i think about it i cant remember which it is... .
Uproot. The rats don't agress unless you get too close to them. Orbit Main reactor at 72km when you get into plex and never see NPC aggression.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
The Network.
#116 - 2012-06-05 08:31:01 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

there is several bigger problems that needs to be solved before anyone can decide what kind of rats are in plexes.

Is there any way you could describe or list what these problems are? And since you probably have the best insight into FW mechanics of any player who has participated, what would you propose as solutions?
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#117 - 2012-06-05 10:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
X Gallentius wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:

there is several bigger problems that needs to be solved before anyone can decide what kind of rats are in plexes.

Is there any way you could describe or list what these problems are? And since you probably have the best insight into FW mechanics of any player who has participated, what would you propose as solutions?


There is several issues, with plexing.

Example standings does affect agroes, so if you have good standing rats does not agro at all, no point to adjust rats if basic mechanic does not make those even agro.

Another question is that do we want to see low sp alts afk orbitting timer and getting shitloads lp without doing anything.
Killing those will give 100 lp max, so how long you think people will bother to shoot those.
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#118 - 2012-06-05 11:44:35 UTC
Eve isn't ment to be fair

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#119 - 2012-06-05 12:58:50 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I think the loss of target painters will help us against the minmatar rats as well.
No target painters/webs = "afk plexing incursus" for missile spam plexes.


So what? Until the militia players are notified of the plexes being attacked (or something else that makes it more of a pvp activity) it will always be a lame pve mechanic. Making you need to use a bigger pve ship is like trying to polish a turd.


CCP talked about making plexxing a pvp activity, but they did not deliver. They still need to work on this imo.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
The Network.
#120 - 2012-06-05 13:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
CCP talked about making plexxing a pvp activity, but they did not deliver. They still need to work on this imo.

There's NO WAY any activity in Eve can be a pvp activity if one side chooses to not engage. If you can tell us how to force both sides to engage, then let's hear it.

There can only be consequences if one side chooses not to engage. The short term consequences (have to sit on button for a long time, have to continue to defend bunker forever while wts are free to do what they want) are a penalty to most of the people who won (either by pvp, or because the other side bailed), not the people who lost (either fled or were killed).