EVE General Discussion

Its such a dead profession I'm investing in some strip miners BPOs

They're selling at a profit atm. Not a big one, but it's there.

I have 4.

They are equivalent but in a context where playstyle enforcers keep deriding hi sec risks it is legitimate to suspect a purposedly used wording to instill the notion that by following the diktat you reduce risk as in risk of death.
While in the original topic I was mentioning how flying lower value ships does not make you a "worthless" target to skip.




1 They should have sold it as "build one empire" since in the end it's a NAP. One blob to rule them all. Nice diversity, in fact null seccers are bored enough to go find something to do in hi sec.
2 That just advertises one of many braindead EvE mechanics. Quite less inspiring than a "Space American Dream".
3 Yes but it's a rare exception, like finding gold nuggets in long time depleted rivers. I originally rolled EvE for that and even got lucky enough to find a corp doing it (which is rare already). But the chance finding targets that were not just 1 or 1000? 1 fight in a whole evening. Whereas in GW2 or other PvP games small scale is right there.
4 Show me how do you stay in a corp that won't make you such a target and takes 5 minutes to adapt. Good active PvP corps require commitment far beyond what a modern "employed with family" player can afford.
5 There are multiple 100B+ 3rd party players. Chribba, Grendell, Darkness, me and... oh wait not many more. There are likewise multiple famous PvPers but they are very very few. A game so old should have hundreds of them.
6 If you say so
7 Yes it's the metagame, I still have some last self posed objectives to achieve. I mostly log in for 5 minutes a day to flip collateral contracts and send ISK to invest.
I wanted to do other stuff but I don't have the time for all those time eating activities like i.e. wait 30 mins for fleet setup then warp 50 systems to find a fight and then eventually grind back the losses.
Like me there are many and they are increasing as they age. They did not want to rule the universe, just to relax in a lively virtual space. Then came the psychotic dictators to teach em that their gaming is wrong and they are meant to be coffee powered hardened professionals ready for death and doom at every second, even while at the toilet.
8 No connection with the "depressing and boring and limited options" statement of mine.
9 You seem convinced EvE is a game for a select number of players and the others get bitten by something special. No, EvE is not hard, is not the harshest one. It just takes a specific mentality, easily pleased by the many abysmal and incomplete / unpolished features mindset.
The ultra-low new player retention is not due to EvE being special but because it's an handful of great concepts in a sub par product.
If not for the great concepts (one shard, sandbox...) EvE would have closed shop years ago like many other similar quality indie products.




As I said in a previous post, the number of daily ship kills in a non Hulkageddon day vs the lack of forum posts proves that most miners go along with risk just fine.
Those posting believing HS <> PvP are outliers that needed just an additional input to enrage and run to the forums.




1) Most are not sandbox based, are not based on player driven economy (the feature bots affect the most) and have drop only gear and other mechanics that make the impact of bots limited and controlled.
2) Some others with player driven economy have detection routines (like those EvE adopted after many years) and make just impossible for bots to earn a profit. I.e. Entropia is engineered to have very low value and not requested bottable farmables.
Imagine if all what you could farm in EvE were the civilian datacores you get in the tutorial. All the rest has either intricate mechanics with many outcomes or the gear weardown (when used "dumb" like a bot) is engineered to eat your profits more than you make in money.




Those on choke points check the credentials of those who want to pass, when somebody approaches the vip the guards immediately go around and proactively shield him. If a ganker wants to shoot all he has to go is to land right in the target face and nobody can do anything without getting concorded. They are put on the defensive-receiving end since the beginning.

Well you could just warp off. Gank stopped.

I read that article but it's half false.

EvE is not hard. EvE is not the harshest either.

As reference I put RetroMUD, a game I played for some years.
There you could:

1) Take permanent stats losses on death.
2) Each death you lost 30% of a level or similar. If you died enough you'd be forcibly downgraded back to level 1. At high levels, 1 level took a week of insane grinding to be gained. And 10 seconds or a lag spike to die.
3) Full player loot.
4) If you died against NPCs THEY'd take your loot. If it was something hard, good luck retrieving your stuff.
5) Each city you entered had standings. Too low and everything attacked and generally killed you.
6) Bar few exceptions, classes required to always go around in a group. A 200 xp NPC (tiny) could permastun you to death. It could take 20 minutes but then you'd die and lose all.
7) Resurrection could only be made by same alignment players. Resser classes were not great so they were damn rare. You could have to wait for up to 12 hours dead before one of them would log in.
8) Mobs could infect you with various diseases. If not cured they'd spread and also permanently destroy your stats.
9) Those who could remove diseases were also relatively few and each disease had the right curer to find.
10) It had an epic quest that required exclusively the top of the top of the top of the top players. It'd cost an absurd amount of money to progress thru (imagine in EvE you had to spend 1 trillion per player) and about 3 RL years of time.
Needless to say, those who finished it were worshipped as beyond gods.

The game is still online. Any 0.0 hard core hero wants to try it and endure 88 levels like I did and be champion of multiple guilds at the same time?


Then I played Darkfall Online. Despite the design was flawed, it still sported:

1) Extended crafting and blah blah
2) Full player loot, including money. In EvE you don't lose ISK on death, in there you lose all what you did not deposit in a safe.


I also played Istaria when it was just released.

No particular hardship or hard game play, but just levelling up was gruelling. 100 levels with about 10 quests in the first levels and that's it. 20 or so classes and 14 craft classes could be levelled by each character. Of course since the grind was not asinine enough, you also had diminishing returns on the XP you got after each new class you took.


I also played a little of Entropia.

1) Very, very extended crafting and player made economy. You will NOT be bored with its mining. Not only it's more fun and varied but you are constantly and worriedly counting how much money you are spending in probes (that can and will fail, and the equipment used for them will wear down and break).
2) Graphs and stuff, more than EvE.
3) Everything in the end costs RL money. EvE is for pansies. Stuff breaks too, and quick. On paper it's free, in reality is very hard to not lose money. Some pay $100 a month.
4) It has some PvP areas including in space. Spaceships PvP have full loot, and when you die and they take your loot you basically lost the RL money you spent to buy it. The items don't cost just few cents.
5) You can be scammed. And it's not just ISK that you lose.



So, what was harsh again?

Never said it did. I said that you risk less by flying them. Even if we say a Covetor is twice as likely to be ganked (properly isk tanked one isn't), the risk you're facing is 2x*50:x*300 or 1/3rd the risk of flying a Hulk (and that's discounting insurance, so it's really more like 2x*20:x*300 or 1/12th the risk).


1Null has always had a boom and bust cycle of activity. The height of BoB and the GBC had even less activity than there is now, then it fell apart and there were years of fairly constant strife. We're in another calm before a storm.
2The Butterfly effect video was all about how ONE pilot can make a difference. Those are just some examples of that
3There are TONs of small gang PvP focused corps. Heck, nearly all of FW is focused on that. They're just not common in Sov Null because srsbsns spaceships require you to bulk on numbers.
4I was talking about miners. It takes less than 5min to change your fit or fit out a covetor. It takes even less time to decide "I'm gonna watch d-scan" Besides that, most good active PvP corps are perfectly understanding of RL issuses. Only having a few hours a week to play is fine if you spend the time trying to pew.
5Not really. People have many more things they can specialize in. There's a guy who flies Sabres in lowsec. Exclusively. He's spectacular with them, but he doesn't make videos or much noise. Shadoo spent years on his skills as an FC. The Mittani spent years honing his espionage skills. There are people who really are spectacular at what they do, don't promote themselves. In other games, there are official leaderboards and other things that do promotion for you. Fighting outgunned in EvE is legitimately really hard, that's why there are so few famous for it.
7Seriously? There is still plenty of room for casual. HAG just means that miners can no longer be lazy. You want casual PvP, RvB or FW are great resources for instance.
8This is the False advertising thread. 7 is the depressing, boring options, which is a matter of taste. I find mining terribly boring, so I don't do it. The people who do mine must have some reason to do it (surely isn't the income).
9Got another game that gives players the ability to build and manage empires on the scale of EvE? Got another game with a functional player driven economy on the scale that EvE has? Got another game where nobody is safe anywhere?
As for polish, if that's the case, why isn't there a polished AAA MMO out that's stealing subs from EvE? EvE's here because actually holding to those principles as you iterate is really hard.



I don't believe that *any* system averaged 24 exhumer kills to suicide gank outside of HAG.



So they took steps to combat botting that are completely incompatible with EvE. Ok. I still think the botting issue is over

__________
"Those on choke points check the credentials of those who want to pass, when somebody approaches the vip the guards immediately go around and proactively shield him. If a ganker wants to shoot all he has to go is to land right in the target face and nobody can do anything without getting concorded. They are put on the defensive-receiving end since the beginning."
__________


So, the whole thing with Reagan never happened? That was an attacker getting in close before he displayed a threat. If you're mining away from the warpin (like you should), the ganker either needs probes or a scout to sneak into range.

Nobody can do anything without being CONCORDED because in HS, the guy who shoots first gets CONCORDed because ALL unprovoked aggression is illegal. If you want to figure out a way to let the mechanics say that a ship landing in belt with you is provocative that doesn't lead to miners getting popped more than they are now, I'd love to see it.

Of course but I don't want that casual readers will get wrong numbers.




Unlike most in this thread, I have been the new player in Retriever (I tried playing as many features and places in EvE as possible).
Minmatar space is much low sec, and rare very high sec.
I could not go to 0.6 sec and below because those pathetic rats would kill it before I could do 1 cycle.

If you make hi sec unplayable by newbies, what's the point?

Sure, now that I have 55M SP I can tank them in bikini, but I do recall the past and I am a newbie helper and give them ships and when they are ready sometimes I even give them exhumers.




There are also mission rats that spawn if you mine a finished mission.
The quad spawn kill a T1 indy in about 2-3 minutes and a covetor needs a decent tank to live longer. Yes I said it in the same sentence: covetor and tank.

It does not come as a surprise that rats act in imbalanced ways. EvE is all made like an inconsistent, incremental patchwork.





Price rose since yesterday. But still, your setup is a joke.

I matched your numbers in mine. You included stuff 1 in 500 use like Michi's Excavation Augmentor (in addition of course to the 5% other implant) and all skills to V.
You are talking of a limit situation. It resembles me those claiming incursions yielded 250M per hour, with the difference that incursioneers are way richer and played the game for longer, while miners are the baseline playerbase.
Plus the benchmark mineral is Trit, because it's what you find everywhere and it's also what you find in mission mining (there are very few missions with enough pyro to be relevant).

People don't like your setups because they are good on paper and when they try them for real, they find out they earn well less than stated and it's already the bottom profession of all, now just made p*ss annoying.
Even just minor details like the T2 crystals or having to jet can vs before no jet can (= risk of flipping) or else having to warp all the time. All of this sucks.
And no, I have actually been extensively in all sorts of belts and no, for 100 miners there are 2-3 Orcas, so all your equations and workarounds only apply to a minority.

If for some unfathomable disgrace I returned mining I would want 20 ISK pu or else go mine it yourself.
But this won't happen because bots and gunmining will make prices not reach any value that makes you feel like it was worth the risk and effort.


After so long discussion and seeing you EFT / IPH warrior to fabricate irrealistic income scenarios I am hereby going to stop bothering with the whole discussion.
Go ahead and convince the masses that they earn whatever. They won't take long to see by themselves.




Nobody cares. Only a "silly" would mine ice in low sec, the ice in there does not even give a tangible higher income.
And given the calculated 0.0 income, only an silly would mine ice in nullsec, any ABC is better.
Want proof?

Ice ISK per hour quadrupled. Because people just stopped mining it, they did not go to low or null.
Going to laugh the day PvP heroes will have to train an alt and go sit at a belt themselves and will have to use their GD forum downloaded mega-tank-empty-each-cycle wonder.

You want to try higher level mining missions then.

Tanked Hulk can deal with those cruiser spawns easily. Although I had to launch Hammerheads from my Orca because I didn't have time to jump into my Cane before rats got me locked.

First two spawns had like one cruiser so I laughed and thought I can deal with these rats. Third spawn had 3 cruisers and 4 frigates.

Tanked hulk can tank 3 1.5 mil BS belt rats with ease with no boosting. Thats what they were DESIGNED to do. Got a buddy who does it all the time in nullsec. And those 1.5 mil BS spawns are the toughest non-faction spawn you can find outside of an incursion or sleeper site.