EVE General Discussion

You are egregiously mistaken.
In EvE, when you have fair PvP it's because you picked the wrong fight. You will never be attacked by someone wanting a fair fight, they want the easy kill, they want to farm you (this applies to all the PvP MMOs).
This is also why they so strongly oppose to giving miners any ability to immediately strike back. If this happened, then they could actually have a fair fight, this cannot be allowed!




2 legged sharks use dynamite at fish.
2 legged PvPers use AoE smart bomb boats at miners.
Done.




When I mined, I spent sizable amounts doing it in low and null. Never had to use D-Scan once, never had to tank, never had to pay 1/100 of the attention required in hi sec.
What magic did we use? Simple, the system was nicely sealed by gate camp. In null it was even easier. 1 neut in local => warp to POS.




I love the black and white, comfortably clear cut world you live in.
What do you do when they give you additional responsibility / risk / tasks / overtime in your RL job (could be mining) and you are told no, you won't get a raise?

Do you immediately give up and leave?
Do you go to a worker union to see if there are solutions? Or do you avoid that because workers after all are meant to Adapt or Leave?
Do you consider the cost of change? Whereas a PvPer has to refit or add some other skills, an industry character has all the wrong stats and many millions SP unusable to play how the dominant groupthink has decided EvE must be played.




What prevents for the same to be implemented in other situations?
CCP did not tell: "if you want to wage war to another corporation, that's what Lowsec and Null are for". They just added the option to have it in hi sec too.

Imo since this is a PvP biased sandbox, then options to like these should be added in every possible facet to the game.

You don't avoid risk, you reduce damage. Dead ship is dead ship, period.




They just don't sell it as:
"you will be a pawn in the hands of some overlords"
"you really believed in the butterfly effect video? LOL"
"PvP? In EvE? Sure you'll be in a 1000 men blob and generally 10x target size blob"
"you'll be just another farmable target unless you commit job alike hours in the game to belong to the right elite alliances"

Fun thing is that in most other PvP games this does not happen. You can be somebody and even be really famous for your ability to kill 3-4 guys alone. You can be a 5 men guild steamrolling parties 4 times that size.
A cold shower happens when you find out all of this in EvE does not happen.
It's not just cold and harsh. It's also depressing and boring and with extremely limited options to shine by own merits.
But these things are not advertised, so indeed EvE gets a large, very large number of players that should never have subbed.
It's not surprising these players get shocked by what revealed to be false advertisment and quit ASAP. Or they hang for a while till something nastier than usual push them out.




Neither me nor many others have been attracted to EvE due to the lack of PvP, but because it also shown "much more than caveman clubbing".
I have personally been hooked to EvE by looking at this video.

Market, industry, PvP. Looked so cool.
Ended in bots, bots and Goons mentality.




That's why all the vips are surrounded by body guards. To wait to be shot in face and then politely call the police. Poor Obama, he thought he lived in a 1st world country.

Show me 12M/hr tanked Covetor fit then.

Cool. If miners are willing to put in the effort that living in null requires (or deal with people so that someone else will do it for them), then they can also dispense with the effort of D-Scanning (or doing one of the 17 other options I listed).

If they want to live in HS, they need to deal with the specific hazards of HS.



If I get handed additional responsibilities, I analyze whether the job is still worth doing at the pay I'm getting. If I know it will be difficult to get another job, that affects my decision process. If the overall benefits of the job aren't worth the costs it imposes, I will find another job. If there are no other jobs, then my evaluation of benefits will include "not unemployed." I've also never worked in a unionized job . Just because the costs have changed doesn't mean they automatically outweigh the benefits.

I'm sorry, an industry character has exactly the same training time to a new role as anyone else. Remaps are gud. If I have Amarr BS 5 and circumstances change such that I never use Amarr battleships again, does that mean those SP are unusable? No. It means they are unusable in my situation. I can fly a Hulk on this toon. I haven't done so in about two years. Are those SP unusable? No, they're unusable in my situation. If I want to, I can change my situation and make those SP usable again.

Again, when I'm talking about costs and benefits, I am including ALL benefits and ALL costs of the activity. Benefits to account for in your Cost-Benefit analysis include, but are not limited to, Monetary, Psychological, Social, and Sexual (not sure how mining has this benefit, but v0v). Costs to account for include, but are not limited to, Monetary, Psychological, Opportunity, Transitional, and Social.

Economic activity (on the microeconomic level) is pretty black and white unless you start excluding costs or benefits from your analysis.

If Miners, taking into account ALL of that, decide mining is worth it, they should continue. If it's not worth it, they should not. I have no way of making that analysis on behalf of another person.



What do you mean?

Fix your logistics then, because you're getting less than half of what you should.

They are equivalent.
A 50% chance to lose 50m is equivalent to a 12.5% chance of loosing 200m.

Economic risk is the chance of loss times the value lost. If your odds are the same to lose a Hulk and a Covetor, you lower your risk by flying the cheaper ship.



[Added numbers for ease of reply]

1They sell it as "build an empire" -> Everyone can't be at the top at once
2A single person pressed the button that disbanded BOB. Plus all the other solo big corp infiltrations.
3There's still small gang PvP available.
4You will be a farm-able target unless you spend 5 minutes adapting to changing circumstances.

5Garmon. R&K. There are multiple people and groups famed for fighting outnumbered and outgunned.
6Yes it does
7If you think EvE is boring and has limited options, that's fine. Something must keep you playing, focus on that.
8Show me an ad that makes New Eden look or sound safe.
9Not false advertising if you advertise what people get angry about "not being told". But some people blind themselves to the advertisement and thus are surprised and angered when it bites them. They should have done some research (like watching/reading the ad they clicked). If this isn't the game for them, I'm sorry it took them so long to realize that.



Quite a few people, especially those posting My-Hulk-Got-Ganked threads seem to think exactly that, that HS is without PvP (or that they should be exempted because they don't like ship-to-ship PvP.

And other MMOs don't have problems with bots?



The guards don't shoot everyone who get's near him, do they? The guards don't shoot before a crime is committed. It's generally illegal to point a weapon at someone, so the guards can start firing then. In EvE, pointing a gun at someone's just fine (yellowboxing) it's shooting them the first crime committed.

The President travels with bodyguards and an Ambulance. Miners can travel with bodyguards (Blapnados) and an Ambulance (RR). No problem.

That is with hauler.

If you don't believe. You can check it too with IPH.

Set # of miners to 1.

Then fire him, because he's incompetent and leaves half the haul behind and/or he's skimming off the top.

On skills alone, Covetor w/ 3× T1 Strips + 1× MLU I = 1,019m³ / minute = 611,400 units veldspar / hour = 12M ISK (for the ore).
Add the Orca, and you have 1,172m³ / minute = 703,200 units (dense) veldspar / hour = 16M ISK (for the ore) / 14.8M ISK (for the trit).

If you don't believe it, use actual maths.

edit: wtfwordorder. >_<

Am I the only one seeing a recurring theme in this thread?

1) I don't want to cut into my isk per hour profits
2) I want to make lots of isk mining
3) I want to make lots of isk mining veldspar

If the goal is to make lots of isk mining, shouldn't people be looking at stuff to mine outside of velspar? Isn't CCP's desire that you be going into lower sec space to make the most amount of isk while mining?

Am I the only one that sees people complaining if they can't make 50m isk an hour mining veldspar in hi sec, and thinking that there's something wrong here? Is this not, ultimately, contradictory of what CCP intends for the systems?

I'm not imagining this. I'm reading responce after responce of people upset over the idea of cutting into their isk per hour by fitting their ship in a way that will afford them some level of protection.

I'd love to see a breakdown of all the mining barges that have been blown up over the past couple of months, and the systems they were blown up in.

For the love of god, you can mine a .6 and .7 system in a retriever, with 3 drones and no modules for defense, and the only thing you have to worry about is the off chance that a player will wonder into your system who might want to blow you up. It shouldn't be this way.

It's also ironic that one of the arguements I see used often enough is "the effect ganking has on new players who want to mine". You know what's even worse as a new player that wants to mine? Going into an asteroid belt and seeing it strip mined by a few barges! Going to an asteroid belt later in the day as a new player and there not being an asteroid belt because it's been strip mined. Being a new player and competing with people who are in T2 barges, stip mining asteroid blets, and not being able to go into lower sec systems to mine because the rats actually are a threat and it's easier for player pirates to actually blow them up.

You guys are as much a detriment to the new player experience as ganker is. You guys fly ships that have he capacity to actually survive lower sec systems, read not LOW sec just lower sec, but instead choose to keep your T2 barges and miners in hi sec space were you have next to no risk and new players can't compete.

I'm sorry, but there's a balance issue here. CCP should seriously take a loot at the way they handle rat spawns, and start injecting some risk into hi sec systems were people in T2 barges are able to operate with near immunity, except from that RARE occastion that another player might actually blow them up.