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Are Exhumer's a dead ship line ?
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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#181 - 2012-06-03 16:49:40 UTC
Hmmm

Standard max yield fit can survive any ganker. Just warp off before the ganker finishes dropping out of warp.
Hint: flying aligned saves lives. Don't be lazy and the lazy gankers will go find something easier.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#182 - 2012-06-03 16:52:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Are you stupid or deaf?

DON'T USE T2 STRIPS DUMBASS!!!


I too, once, was happy with 10M/hr.


If you want more Money, put some effort into it and Mine Aligned or Mine Using D-Scan with a 2x MLUII Hulk.


IPH says 16.525M per hour in 2 MLU II Hulk.

Clearly worth the investment, having to spam D-Scan all day long and going "glass cannon" yield.


Then don't make the investment. The shitty market for minerals is entirely miner created now, no excuses. There's even HAG to prop the price of minerals up. If minerals were still NPC buy/sell items, the shit income would be an argument. When Drones and M0 drops were a thing, the shit income was an argument -for fixing other mineral sources (a fix I am all for).

The isk income of mining is totally irrelevant to the balance of the ship, because that income is dependent on the player market, with very few competitors in mineral creations to beat down miner income.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2012-06-03 16:53:50 UTC
Homo Jesus wrote:
Limited? NOOOooo but hulks are designed for deep null space when you have to tank pretty nasty rats. They aren't meant to be shitfit and parked afk in a belt because they look cooler and have slightly better yield than T1 variations.

But then many ships are used for purposes that they weren't designed for, i.e. salvaging destroyers and bc, mining rokhs. I'm sure there's more. So this reason FAILs. IIf the devs didn't want it in high sec, they wouldn't have allowed it.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#184 - 2012-06-03 16:54:59 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
If you want more Money, put some effort into it and Mine Aligned or Mine Using D-Scan with a 2x MLUII Hulk.


For a very small price I could actually do that. Or I could let you gank my Hulk for 500M. Lol


Not until you pay me the 10m you owe me.


Don't do it RubyPorto, it's a trap! That's exactly what he wants, if he never pays you the 10mil, he thinks you'll never gank his hulk! Shocked


The longer he doesn't put his 10m where his mouth is, the more likely I am to try to get it from his loot drops.

It's a very low liklihood to start, because Roll 10m, but he is publicly backing out of a deal.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2012-06-03 16:55:52 UTC
Isana Austrene wrote:
Here's what has me scratching my head.

A Hulk is maybe twice as efficient at mining as a Covetor.

The Hulk costs an order of magnitude more than the Covetor.

Pardon the newbie's question, but under what circumstances does it even make sense to buy a Hulk, if the more expensive ship's defenses can't stand up to determined suicide gankers?

Well the Covetor's tank is far less than the Hulk. So once everyone stops using the Hulk, the Covertors are next. Really, it's all about control.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#186 - 2012-06-03 17:00:55 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:

You are right, because people whined about bombs and bubbles being to powerful for highsec, and their carebearing being to hard to do.

Sound familiar? This is what we want to prevent getting worse.


Imagine this, with your wonderful bombers and bubbles (and other "features") you made 0.0 so good that it's a wasteland.

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I never said they SHOULD be allowed in highsec, they are ridiculously OP in any environment other than a few specialized ones.

The point is hulk shares this aspect, but as it doesn't kill anyone it doesn't get near as much attention. Best solution imo, nerf hulk yield, but give them a specialized strip that won't activate in highsec, which only they can fit.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-06-03 17:04:18 UTC
Wilma Lawson wrote:
Well the Covetor's tank is far less than the Hulk. So once everyone stops using the Hulk, the Covertors are next. Really, it's all about control.


This is very likely to happen. And if people actually learn to tank their Hulks then gankers have to search for next target and it's Covetors/Retrievers.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#188 - 2012-06-03 17:06:28 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Wilma Lawson wrote:
Well the Covetor's tank is far less than the Hulk. So once everyone stops using the Hulk, the Covertors are next. Really, it's all about control.


This is very likely to happen. And if people actually learn to tank their Hulks then gankers have to search for next target and it's Covetors/Retrievers.

Then people mining in hulks are safe, no?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#189 - 2012-06-03 17:06:48 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Wilma Lawson wrote:
Well the Covetor's tank is far less than the Hulk. So once everyone stops using the Hulk, the Covertors are next. Really, it's all about control.


This is very likely to happen. And if people actually learn to tank their Hulks then gankers have to search for next target and it's Covetors/Retrievers.


GSF is profiting from HAG (Hulks nom Tech). How would a bounty on T1 ships make any profit for GSF?

And where's my money?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2012-06-03 17:18:45 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Wilma Lawson wrote:
Well the Covetor's tank is far less than the Hulk. So once everyone stops using the Hulk, the Covertors are next. Really, it's all about control.


This is very likely to happen. And if people actually learn to tank their Hulks then gankers have to search for next target and it's Covetors/Retrievers.

Then people mining in hulks are safe, no?

No. Because, amazingly enough, gankers adapt.
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2012-06-03 17:19:15 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Wilma Lawson wrote:
Well the Covetor's tank is far less than the Hulk. So once everyone stops using the Hulk, the Covertors are next. Really, it's all about control.


This is very likely to happen. And if people actually learn to tank their Hulks then gankers have to search for next target and it's Covetors/Retrievers.


GSF is profiting from HAG (Hulks nom Tech). How would a bounty on T1 ships make any profit for GSF?

And where's my money?

Because maybe it's not about moon goo?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#192 - 2012-06-03 17:21:05 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

Sounds to me like a Hulk makes no Economic sense in HS right now (5m per hour over a Covetor, 250m Isk more expensive, 50! hour payback). But not making economic sense in one situation doesn't mean it needs a buff.

I'll say again, if the activity does not provide rewards (monetary, psychological, whatever) commensurate with the costs (risk, effort, etc), however you measure those, don't do that activity.


See, when I see my sister went to dance school it really made no sense to me. She was never to go beyond the "curiosity" level, she wasted massive amounts of time, she had to buy shoes and whatever.

The reply was simple: "because I like it and it's my money".

That's all to it.


Also you forget a big, big detail.

Many and I mean MANY people have old ships. So imagine you have 4 rigged Hulks somewhere. Are you going to lose some decently expensive rigs and dump them and downgrade your pilots like they wasted 6 months of SP? Unlikely.
So expect for T2 ships to still be around for a while... before they are all killed of course.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#193 - 2012-06-03 17:24:21 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

Then don't make the investment. The shitty market for minerals is entirely miner created now, no excuses. There's even HAG to prop the price of minerals up. If minerals were still NPC buy/sell items, the shit income would be an argument. When Drones and M0 drops were a thing, the shit income was an argument -for fixing other mineral sources (a fix I am all for).

The isk income of mining is totally irrelevant to the balance of the ship, because that income is dependent on the player market, with very few competitors in mineral creations to beat down miner income.


It's not sh!tty at all. It's called market self optimization and it's what markets exist for.

It the smart geniuses claming mining is imbalanced reward and crap who don't know squat about how miner vs miner market competition naturally keeps prices very low.


Finally, HS miners will be totally out-competed by 0.0 max yield bots and nobody reports those, expecially since they share good cash.

This is what HAG will achieve: a neat boost to RMT while decimating real miners. Bad or good they are legit and they are those going to be kicked out.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#194 - 2012-06-03 17:26:29 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:


The point is hulk shares this aspect, but as it doesn't kill anyone it doesn't get near as much attention. Best solution imo, nerf hulk yield, but give them a specialized strip that won't activate in highsec, which only they can fit.


So, a glass cannon, zero survivability Hulk with T2 fittings yields 16.5M per hour.

You REALLY believe it's too much? Too much compared to what other profession?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#195 - 2012-06-03 17:34:35 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Wilma Lawson wrote:
Well the Covetor's tank is far less than the Hulk. So once everyone stops using the Hulk, the Covertors are next. Really, it's all about control.


This is very likely to happen. And if people actually learn to tank their Hulks then gankers have to search for next target and it's Covetors/Retrievers.


GSF is profiting from HAG (Hulks nom Tech). How would a bounty on T1 ships make any profit for GSF?

And where's my money?

Thread after thread of impotent rage factors pretty heavily into the 'benefit' column.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#196 - 2012-06-03 17:43:57 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
GSF is profiting from HAG (Hulks nom Tech). How would a bounty on T1 ships make any profit for GSF?


I thought that only ganker's profit is important to you.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#197 - 2012-06-03 17:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:


The point is hulk shares this aspect, but as it doesn't kill anyone it doesn't get near as much attention. Best solution imo, nerf hulk yield, but give them a specialized strip that won't activate in highsec, which only they can fit.


So, a glass cannon, zero survivability Hulk with T2 fittings yields 16.5M per hour.

You REALLY believe it's too much? Too much compared to what other profession?

Used in nullsec the miners in my corp are making 60mil+ an hour with their hulks. And that is selling to the corp at a discount.

Edit: and before you accuse them of being bots, I should point out that we police that. We don't report them, we kill them til they are to broke, then kick them so they are stranded in nullsec.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#198 - 2012-06-03 17:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
GSF is profiting from HAG (Hulks nom Tech). How would a bounty on T1 ships make any profit for GSF?


I thought that only ganker's profit is important to you.

Without the GSF subsidy the gankers profit is -10mil.

Edit: edited the wrong post.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#199 - 2012-06-03 17:48:46 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Sounds to me like a Hulk makes no Economic sense in HS right now (5m per hour over a Covetor, 250m Isk more expensive, 50! hour payback). But not making economic sense in one situation doesn't mean it needs a buff.

I'll say again, if the activity does not provide rewards (monetary, psychological, whatever) commensurate with the costs (risk, effort, etc), however you measure those, don't do that activity.


See, when I see my sister went to dance school it really made no sense to me. She was never to go beyond the "curiosity" level, she wasted massive amounts of time, she had to buy shoes and whatever.

The reply was simple: "because I like it and it's my money".

That's all to it.


Also you forget a big, big detail.

Many and I mean MANY people have old ships. So imagine you have 4 rigged Hulks somewhere. Are you going to lose some decently expensive rigs and dump them and downgrade your pilots like they wasted 6 months of SP? Unlikely.
So expect for T2 ships to still be around for a while... before they are all killed of course.


See where I listed psychological under the types of rewards?
If you have less money because you spent it on something that makes you feel good, you can't yell that the economy owes you something. Either the good feeling was worth the money, or you should have spent the money elsewhere.

If people are buying the Hulk because "they like it and it's their money" then that's fine. They just can't turn around and complain that they're owed a buff because it turned out to be not enough fun to be worth it to them.

If you have 4 Hulks somewhere, either keep them docked until this blows over or sell them. Opportunity costs matter in economic decisions. Either it's worth undocking (and risking) a 300m Isk ship to mine, or it's not. How old the ship is is irrelevant.
As for SP, I would guess that 75-90% of the SP most people have don't apply to the ship they are currently pilot. SP affords options, not power.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#200 - 2012-06-03 17:52:41 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
GSF is profiting from HAG (Hulks nom Tech). How would a bounty on T1 ships make any profit for GSF?


I thought that only ganker's profit is important to you.


You haven't actually been reading what I write, have you.

Ganker's profit is how you decide how risky some HS action is. That's why I keep dismissing "Oh But they'll just gank harder." Because that's unsustainable.

GSF isn't going to put a bounty on T1 ships because T1 ships contain no Tech.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon