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Insurance should be removed from the game, a Problematic Isk Faucet
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#41 - 2012-06-02 14:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Tor Gungnir wrote:
The original poster is either a moron or a troll. Insurance is one of the biggest ISK sinks in the game... Roll

Actually, it really IS an ISK faucet - a minor one though.
It's a net faucet because (by the very definition of an ISK faucet) it creates more ISK in payouts than it destroys in sign-up fees.
Only a small number of insurances expire, rest are paid out on blow-up. Also remember that for the basic insurance you don't even pay anything.
Very few people bother insuring and re-insuring ships they are reasonably sure they won't be blown up soon (and when they unexpectedly do, some ISK is created anyway), and almost everybody that PvPs almost always fully insures their ship (and are almost always guaranteed to lose it before the insurance expires, because that's how PvP works, statistically speaking).
It's still a small ISK faucet even compared to mission rewards, and both insurance and mission rewards are tiny compared to NPC bounties. The net ISK creation of the insurance system is at most around 7%, probably even less than 5% of total ISK creation in the game, on average.

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MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#42 - 2012-06-02 14:58:02 UTC
How many insurance policies never get cashed in, but instead expired? (the sink side of the system)

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"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#43 - 2012-06-02 15:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
MadMuppet wrote:
How many insurance policies never get cashed in, but instead expired? (the sink side of the system)

Typical Sunday a year and a half ago:
Insurance Payouts 111,942,877,603 ISK
Insurance Costs 43,021,823,156 ISK
That's ~38% vs the expected ~30% if all ships were plat-insured and blown up, the value of ships blowing up uninsured is unknown, so I guess on average somewhere about a third of contracted insurances expire (plus minus a few percents wiggle room).

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2012-06-02 15:07:24 UTC
Akita T wrote:
MadMuppet wrote:
How many insurance policies never get cashed in, but instead expired? (the sink side of the system)

Typical Sunday a year and a half ago:
Insurance Payouts 111,942,877,603 ISK
Insurance Costs 43,021,823,156 ISK
Compare that to a Sunday half a year ago:
Insurance payouts: 125.8 billion ISK.
Insurance costs: 67.8 billion ISK.

…now compare that to the totals injection of 2 trillion ISK on that day (just under one trillion net after all sinks are included). It's 5–6% of both the total and the net injection, just like Akita said.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#45 - 2012-06-02 15:13:06 UTC
Insurance just makes no sense. Who is running the Secure Commerce Commission? Obama? It must be the most unprofitable government program in history. Nobody would insure privately owned combat ships, or defenseless industrial ships, where the chance of destruction is so incredibly high. It is a silly game mechanic which should be removed. New players get a decent amount of ships and isk, so I don't buy the claim that insurance is needed for newbies. It's just not true.

No good deed goes unpunished
Solhild
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-06-02 15:14:44 UTC
Can we do this including asset cost in the calculations please.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#47 - 2012-06-02 15:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Oh, I missed that post from the end of January 2012. Was extremely busy in RL with other stuff back then.
I thought only the mid-October 2010 data was available.
Thanks, Tippia, for providing a snippet of text to make googling easy.

Taken from http://blog.beyondreality.se/ISK-faucets-sinks
Quote:
Here is a run-down of the new stats for a single EVE day:

Market transactions: 9.33 trillion ISK (up from 5.85 trillion in 2010).

Faucets:
Bounty prizes: 896.34 billion ISK (up from 876.04 billion in 2010).
NPC buy orders: 337.4 billion ISK (n/a for 2010) -> out of which ~224bn ISK sleeper loot
Incursion rewards: 301.8 billion ISK (and 4.7 million LP, n/a in 2010).
Insurance payouts: 125.8 billion ISK (up from 111.9 billion ISK in 2010).
Agent mission rewards: 74.68 billion ISK (up from 68.93 billion in 2010).
Agent mission bonuses: 71.21 billion ISK (up from 63.45 billion in 2010)

Sinks:
NPC sell orders: 429.7 billion ISK (n/a for 2010), of which 244.8 billion went into skill books and 141.6 billion went into blueprints.
LP store: 183.9 billion ISK (up from 135.3 billion in 2010).
Broker fees: 63.8 billion ISK (up from 46.78 billion in 2010¹).
Sales tax: 56.5 billion ISK plus 7.53 billion in contract taxes (up from 42.2 billion in 2010¹).
Sovereignty bills: n/a (59.3 billion in 2010).
Insurance costs: 67.8 billion ISK (up from 43.02 billion in 2010)
Clone costs: 27.11 billion ISK (up from 20.2 billion in 2010).
PI constrution: 15.64 billion ISK (up from 7.58 billion in 2010).
Repair bills: 6.86 billion ISK (n/a for 2010).
PI export tax: n/a (3.36 billion in 2010).
PI import tax: n/a (290 million in 2010).


Call it a nice round 5% and conclude it's almost insignificant.

P.S. Also, holy bleep, NPC buy orders and incursions (would love to see NPC buy orders further broken down, how much in trade goods vs tags vs sleeper loot).

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Baby ChuChu
Ice Cream Asylum
#48 - 2012-06-02 15:28:18 UTC
I like to imagine most people think before they speak.

This thread makes me think otherwise.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#49 - 2012-06-02 15:39:14 UTC
Baby ChuChu wrote:
I like to imagine most people think before they speak.

The problem is, they do think, but this is the best they can come up with.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
seany1212
M Y S T
#50 - 2012-06-02 15:39:33 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Insurance just makes no sense. Who is running the Secure Commerce Commission? Obama? It must be the most unprofitable government program in history. Nobody would insure privately owned combat ships, or defenseless industrial ships, where the chance of destruction is so incredibly high. It is a silly game mechanic which should be removed. New players get a decent amount of ships and isk, so I don't buy the claim that insurance is needed for newbies. It's just not true.



Remove it completely, just so i can see miners bleat louder on the forums about how there hulk got ganked and they have no isk to replace it Lol

Insurance is mainly for T1 ships, as the T2 ships insurance doesnt take into account moon goo and so barely insures for half the cost of the ship, and dont even start on T3 insurance, its best to just not too Shocked

Considering all new players start in T1 ships its somewhat of a dumb idea to say that removing insurance completely when its something that new players rely heavily upon and would only be a negative for the game to take away.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-06-02 15:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Chokichi Ozuwara
Bad economics in the OP, but the idea that insurance is rubbish is a good one.

IRL, insurance is pooled risk. There is no risk in Eve, since any ship getting destroyed, for any reason gets a payout. The premiums don't scale upon your gamestyle, or the sec you're in. They don't reflect any risk, and they have a fixed upside in a dynamic game, which creates an asymmetry.

The solution would be a more robust contract system, so some enterprising individual (like myself) could setup his own insurance company.

Of course, this would require CCP doing something useful, rather than pushing out missile eye candy or frakking up the UI to eliminate old code.

This game is not a sandbox. Because CCP continues to tweak the boundaries, rather than find ways to continually open them, the game is increasingly boring and stagnant. The promise of a sandbox is appealing, but when you see how much you can't do in Eve, or how much they can eliminate with a thoughtless expansion, it's really no different than anything else.

Persistence != sandbox.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#52 - 2012-06-02 15:58:37 UTC
Leysritt wrote:
You should not be given a single bit of isk when you risk your ship and lose it. It should be a tougher lesson when losing a ship.


whats tougher really than losing the ship? the ship dies, most of everything on the ship is lost as well So assuming the pilot of said dead ship can even return to the site before soemone else takes thier share theres not even everything there anyway.

And insurance does not refund the purchase price of the ship, esp true for certain advanced hulls which can cost hundreds of millions to buy and insure back for only 40-50m with top cover. I dont think its a massive problem theres no profit in buying ships and destroying them for insurance
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#53 - 2012-06-02 16:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
The solution would be a more robust contract system, so some enterprising individual (like myself) could setup his own insurance company.

Which would promptly have to go out of business due to one of two possible reasons : either it's too expensive so nobody bothers getting it, or it's not expensive enough so it runs out of cash.
And the funny thing is, those two reasons overlap in a space where it's both so expensive that very few would bother with it but it still would lose money operating because it doesn't charge enough.

The only reason a perfectly fair private non-compulsory insurance works in real-life is that the vast majority of people suck at accurately assessing risks:benefits ratios when either one of those terms is very large or very small. A rational, honest and fair person with a perfect grasp of his own abilities would never pick up such an insurance, because it would be detrimental to do so without misrepresenting himself as lower-risk, or at least allowing the insurer to inaccurately assign him a lower risk than in reality.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2012-06-02 16:07:39 UTC
Akita T wrote:
P.S. Also, holy bleep, NPC buy orders and incursions (would love to see NPC buy orders further broken down, how much in trade goods vs tags vs sleeper loot).
A week or so later, CCP Diagoras mentioned that sleeper components injected ~224bn ISK average per day in January. So yes, it's a fair chunk of change.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-06-02 16:42:06 UTC
Leysritt wrote:
The insurance system rewards incompetence, you should not be given a single cent for getting your ship blow up. The insurance is also an isk faucet that adds isk to the game for no work required - look at how it was abused when people did insurance scams by self-destructing and making profits.
.



Calling it "problematic" is being kind. It's worthless - as the return doesn't even pay for the simple modules afixed to T2 ship2.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#56 - 2012-06-02 16:49:12 UTC
I wouldn't be against removing insurance for characters over 6 months old, or something similar.

Leave it in for the scrubs though, it might encourage them to risk their T1 ships a little more. And they do need a comfort blanket of some kind to ease them into Eve.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
EVE Roy Mustang
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-06-02 16:51:11 UTC
No More Heroes wrote:
no


Id think Goons would support it...
Hrothgar Nilsson
#58 - 2012-06-02 17:08:09 UTC
Leysritt wrote:
Now that is a big increase in the amount of isk within the economy.

The net faucet from insurance payouts is 3.1% of total ISK faucets (58 billion). The smallest of the ISK facuets. Not big.

Reducing bounty payouts to 94% of current levels would have the same impact as eliminating insurance from the game. Reduce them just 10% and you'd almost double the amount of ISK faucet removed.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#59 - 2012-06-02 17:21:01 UTC
Leysritt wrote:
In real life Insurance gives you money from a pool that is generated by fees paid by people who are subscribed to the insurance programs of that company. That money is not generated out of thin air like in this game.


Just thought I'd point out insurance companies invest everyone's premiums in stock commodities until they have to pay out on a claim, essentially generating money out of thin air.

So close...
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-06-02 18:34:14 UTC
Sure lets give players another reason to not PvP.

I really don't remember the last time I bothered with insurance but I don't fly T1 ships anymore.
It still doesn't mean that it should be removed cause there are a lot of newer players that use it.


EVERYBODY KNOWS