EVE General Discussion

Who provides the security for Null miners? Is it
A) An NPC service that remains in place regardless of player activities
or
B) The Players, themselves?

If you say C) Local, then I'll have to point out that local works exactly the same way in HS.

Ever heard of AWOXing?

Join a corp and then start killing your new "corpmates"

Your rebuttal really doesn’t address the issues that you have raised, I could also point out that Hi Sec, Low Sec and Null Sec mechanics were designed the way the were to provide players with choice, a choice that you and your alliance seem to be keen to divest them of. You have presented several subjective statements regurgitated mindlessly in your post and many other threads; what has not been provided anywhere is objective evidence to support the arguments, please note I do not consider artificially manipulated market/economic conditions or regurgitated hate to be objective evidence.

By the way guys, the solution to hisec local is to build a contact list. Find out who your people are and turn em navy blue, find out who doesn't seem to be an issue and turn em baby blue, find out who is bad and turn em blood red. After a while you'll have intel that's roughly equivalent to nullsec.

Political maneuvering is a big part of the game for a lot of people. Sorry if you don't like that. Miners have been doing it more insidiously by going after the Devs (see the many, many nerfs made at miners' behest).

As for the hate, nobody hates you if you're not among the miners calling for safety, but since most miners are, the label has stuck, also feigned hatred is great for political maneuvering.

If mining is the only way to provide New Eden with as much mineral volume as it demands, then the minerals will come from mining one way or another. The more mining barge ganks happen, the more mining will be worth. It might not be valuable enough for YOU, but if it is valuable enough for SOME people, they will do it.

Yeah we know the many CSM miners representatives personally pressuring the Devs, the many former goonminers developers, the 3rd party miners forums. We see the constant organized miners huge alliances sperging on the forums, the organized miners ebil armies roflstomping civil rights.

Oh wait, only time you even see any miners are when you gank some of them and they create a cry post on the forums.

Hehe, this thread is funny.

First of all, let's make two things clear:
1. High Sec is NOT safe. Jita is a perfect example - that system has a much higher ship kill and podding ratio than most low sec systems. It's simply a matter of risk vs. reward that so many here seem to use for their own agendas. A full tech 1 industrial can carry upwards of 400 million in cargo, yet only requires a fraction of that to kill. Since scanning them is easy, it's a relatively low effort money, as long as one accepts the fact that he'll lose a ship.
2. Most high scale operations such as Burn Jita or Hulkageddon have an ulterior motive in favor of the initiators. For example, by blowing up a Hulk in high sec, the pirate ensures that a new ganker ship AND a new Hulk will be bought on the market (along with a number of mods), thereby potentially giving the initiators double the profit for no effort at all. Additionally, it keeps ore prices higher, which further increases the market price of said ships and increases the initiators' profit margins. That's right, both pirates and miners are just tools to increase the profits of a small creative bunch.

Now what we're going to discuss is risks and rewards. I keep hearing how high sec's rewards are too high and that's what's keeping people there. Simply put, that's not true. Your average level 4 mission will give you what, 30 million with Salvage included? A single low sec DED escalation can give you upwards of a BILLION. In what universe is that not better? Hell, null sec rats alone can give you more money than any action in high sec ever will. But why are people not doing it then? In my opinion, there's two reasons for that:

1. perceived security. Most consider high sec safer simply because there's CONCORD around. Anyone trying to fit a ship to be gank proof will know that to be silly - ANY ship can be blown up anywhere, even in 1.0 system - it's just that facing a tanked Battleship or a Freighter, the sacrifice is usually not worth it. Anything smaller and it's a matter of cargo carried. Funny enough, most gankers are not willing to lose their ship either - even in low sec, they'll only engage when they have an absolute advantage and a practically assured victory.

2. perfect information. Same old, suggestions include WH-style local, delayed local, there's even been a thread about complete rehaul of scanning. Ultimately, the goal is the same - to reduce the available information for both the attacker and the attackee, demanding effort both on the attacker's part to discover the target (as any good scanner will tell you, it takes mere seconds to scan anyone down) and on the target's part to not be discovered. This would have a double benefit in improving perceived security for solo bears (hopefully encouraging more people to travel to null), while at the same time allowing surprise attacks between major alliances, making scouting a whole lot more important in any conflict and possibly moving the combat away from blobs and more towards strategic application of force, more akin to how wormhole conflicts happen.

All in all, the problem isn't high sec rewards - it's psychology, combined with unfortunate mechanics. Rewards have been reduced before and there was barely any increase to null/low sec populations. Most adapted and many of those who chose to try something new pushed for wormholes instead of null/low. You can't change that with further nerfs - there's clearly something missing, an incentive to go to null. If it's not the size of the reward, then what can it be? I'm arguing that the perceived risk is too great for most to try it. Kinda ironical, considering how many people visit Jita daily, if you think about it :p

As i said before, i am a miner (mining in empire since 2008) and have no problem with hulkageddon, it is no longer mindless to mine, u have to stay on ur toes and treat it as u would low or nul sec, not to mention the mineral and ship prices slowly raising because of this and that means more iskies for us manufacturers the amount of catalysts i have sold, easilt makes up for the odd loss of a hulk.
Next prediction is destroyers will be so expensive, it wont be worth it for the gankers, so c'mon miners lets bump them prices up and make them pay for it too more iskies.