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When does all the ganking make mining worth it?
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Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#241 - 2012-06-26 18:22:24 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
I make no bones, that I am a Miner, and proud of it. I will mine where ever my fancy takes me. If you don't like it. Gank me or STFU.

You have no right to tell me how I can play this game. Hell if I want to break a couple of rules and get banned THAT IS MY CHOICE. not yours. Just as it is your choice to play your game. I don't care if you think I am playing wrong, To me I am playing it right, and that is all that matters

You goonie rim lickers need to get a grip on the meaning of "Gaming"


vOv



play nice :) no need for abuse :)
Carlton Foster
Doomheim
#242 - 2012-06-26 18:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Carlton Foster
Merin Ryskin wrote:
what is supposed to be the tutorial area


Source please?
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#243 - 2012-06-26 18:28:41 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:


play nice :) no need for abuse :)


Truth is abuse these days? Shocked


o7
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#244 - 2012-06-26 18:34:31 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:


play nice :) no need for abuse :)


Truth is abuse these days? Shocked


o7



yep look at what the big media is trying to force on country's and the internet, sopa/pipa etc and then look at some of the "propaganda" they spew out "album sales are down year on year for last year" the year after the global economic meltdown, nevermind their omitting "album sales are down year on year, however single sales are up year on year" is what they should be putting lol. the comment about album sales being down especialy the year of the global meltdown ignores the fact of said meltdown, kinda makes you wonder what they've been smoking/injecting? can someone please p**s test them? :)
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#245 - 2012-06-26 18:35:42 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
James 315 wrote:
Mining and ship production can be handled by those in nullsec or even lowsec. Highsec miners have absolutely nothing to offer. If fewer ships entered the game as a result of carebears' destruction, who cares? I sure don't.


This.

The solution to highsec mining is to move ALL significant mineral resources into lowsec and/or 0.0, leaving highsec with nothing significant enough to allow any ship larger than a T1-fitted mining cruiser to make decent income. The mineral supply remains the same, except now if you want zero risk you also get zero reward.



I'm pretty sure the gankers create the risk. High sec miners enjoy the MOST risk thanks to Hulkageddon. So your argument is invalid.

Miners Risk if mining in a HulK:
somewhere around 300M isk

Miners Reward:
they must sell minerals or sell ships/modules/ammo/etc that exceed the amount of money invested before they make a profit. It can take HOURS for a solo miner just to make barely enough in minerals to build a battleship, THEN they also need to still buy the zydrine and megacyte that is transported from low/null (thus creating a demand at all for these null/low sec nullbear miners)

Gankers risk:
somewhere around 10M isk more or less depending on the fit/ganker but there isn't really a risk in known variables. Meaning, you know you are going to lose your ship, your only risk is, will you get paid by the Goons?

Gankers reward:
Goons bounty payout

and NO, not all miners are bots or AFK miners. BTW what do you think "decent income is?" sure mineral prices for high sec minerals has gone up, but 10-20M/hour is "decent income" to you? You are nuts. YET, people can run incursions and make tons more money than a miner. I think your opinions are very biased and not fully formed on facts. get a grip and take your lips off the mittani's salad shooter mmkay?
Sardia Jax
Bite Me inc
#246 - 2012-06-26 19:54:25 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:

Oh FFS, why is reading so complicated?

Newbies belong in highsec.

Hulk pilots do not belong in highsec.

Hulk pilots are not newbies.

If you're a newbie who is building the skills/game knowledge/etc to succeed in lowsec/0.0, I have no problem with you being in highsec. What I hate is the fact that highsec is a viable long-term plan for experienced players who CAN succeed in lowsec/0.0.


All your venom toward high sec miners...sounds like you were a miner who got nailed 1 too many times. Hard to explain it otherwise.

Kinda funny, i come back to eve and miners, and by extension industrialists, are getting hate. Who do you think manufactured that ship your sitting in? Mined the materials to make it? Where did you get the stront for your tower or siege module? Fuel for your pos or jump drive ships? Ya...

Its a game. People play how they want to. If you don't want to mine, then don't.
Pipa Porto
#247 - 2012-06-26 20:10:56 UTC
arcca jeth wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
James 315 wrote:
Mining and ship production can be handled by those in nullsec or even lowsec. Highsec miners have absolutely nothing to offer. If fewer ships entered the game as a result of carebears' destruction, who cares? I sure don't.


This.

The solution to highsec mining is to move ALL significant mineral resources into lowsec and/or 0.0, leaving highsec with nothing significant enough to allow any ship larger than a T1-fitted mining cruiser to make decent income. The mineral supply remains the same, except now if you want zero risk you also get zero reward.



I'm pretty sure the gankers create the risk. High sec miners enjoy the MOST risk thanks to Hulkageddon. So your argument is invalid.

Miners Risk if mining in a HulK:
somewhere around 300M isk

Miners Reward:
they must sell minerals or sell ships/modules/ammo/etc that exceed the amount of money invested before they make a profit. It can take HOURS for a solo miner just to make barely enough in minerals to build a battleship, THEN they also need to still buy the zydrine and megacyte that is transported from low/null (thus creating a demand at all for these null/low sec nullbear miners)

Gankers risk:
somewhere around 10M isk more or less depending on the fit/ganker but there isn't really a risk in known variables. Meaning, you know you are going to lose your ship, your only risk is, will you get paid by the Goons?

Gankers reward:
Goons bounty payout

and NO, not all miners are bots or AFK miners. BTW what do you think "decent income is?" sure mineral prices for high sec minerals has gone up, but 10-20M/hour is "decent income" to you? You are nuts. YET, people can run incursions and make tons more money than a miner. I think your opinions are very biased and not fully formed on facts. get a grip and take your lips off the mittani's salad shooter mmkay?


If you don't like the reward (this includes non-Isk rewards like psychological reward), quit. The income of mining is entirely set by the market of miners. If the income were too low, people would do other things until the income came up to a point where it's just barely worth it again.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2012-06-26 20:23:27 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

If you don't like the reward (this includes non-Isk rewards like psychological reward), quit. The income of mining is entirely set by the market of miners. If the income were too low, people would do other things until the income came up to a point where it's just barely worth it again.

Arcca's post wasn't a complaint about the profits of mining. Rather, it was an observation about the actual risk involved in highsec mining compared to the supposedly "unjustified" rewards.
Pipa Porto
#249 - 2012-06-26 20:29:25 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

If you don't like the reward (this includes non-Isk rewards like psychological reward), quit. The income of mining is entirely set by the market of miners. If the income were too low, people would do other things until the income came up to a point where it's just barely worth it again.

Arcca's post wasn't a complaint about the profits of mining. Rather, it was an observation about the actual risk involved in highsec mining compared to the supposedly "unjustified" rewards.


Let me make this clear.

If you don't like the profit (income*-expenses**) of an activity, don't do it until the profit increases to a point where you like it again. HS mining takes no effort and results in income. The lack of effort is the problem, and that's only mitigated by ganking (which can be avoided with 100% success with a little bit of effort).



*Include ISK, Morale, Expected transition costs, etc. Literally everything good the activity gets you
**Include Time, effort, chance of loss, etc. Literally everything bad that happens due to the activity

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Patrakele
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#250 - 2012-06-26 20:38:46 UTC
In my mind:

Too many miners, too many manufacturers, too many traders - too few actual users --- Supply>Demand

Things are too cheap or it's way too easy to make ISK in all 3 sec space (High, low, null). Need to bring back the days when loosing a big ship would make at least a small dent in your wallet - now none notice it.

Short story - the less miners the better - less supply, higher prices....
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2012-06-26 20:39:05 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

If you don't like the reward (this includes non-Isk rewards like psychological reward), quit. The income of mining is entirely set by the market of miners. If the income were too low, people would do other things until the income came up to a point where it's just barely worth it again.

Arcca's post wasn't a complaint about the profits of mining. Rather, it was an observation about the actual risk involved in highsec mining compared to the supposedly "unjustified" rewards.


Let me make this clear.

If you don't like the profit (income*-expenses**) of an activity, don't do it until the profit increases to a point where you like it again. HS mining takes no effort and results in income. The lack of effort is the problem, and that's only mitigated by ganking (which can be avoided with 100% success with a little bit of effort).



*Include ISK, Morale, Expected transition costs, etc. Literally everything good the activity gets you
**Include Time, effort, chance of loss, etc. Literally everything bad that happens due to the activity

I'm not arguing with your statement, it just isn't a relevant response as the post isn't complaining that the income/profit is too low. It's a counter to the statement that there should be no profit AT ALL by design, which is something that a diminishing population performing the activity cannot sufficiently counter as the return would be capped regardless of the number of participants. Yes, the risks can be mitigated, but that is true of all sec bands. That being the case, being able to mitigate risks should no more invalidate the ability to draw profit of an activity in highsec than it does anywhere else.
Wildwa
The War Forge
#252 - 2012-06-26 21:59:29 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
It's boring as hell, it doesn't pay much
And
Merin Ryshkin wrote:
Highsec is supposed to be the tutorial area, with the least risk but also the lowest rewards.
Then all of a sudden
Merin Ryshkin wrote:
Highsec miners (and other highsec carebears) are worthless parasites because they wreck the risk/reward balance by making veteran-level income in what is supposed to be the tutorial area


So it starts out with the high sec miners making next to NO ISK so they are complete idiots for staying there and actually utilizing a game mechanic, to "OH BUT WAIT!" They are making Veteran level ISK like I do in null sec!!!

There is ISK to be made in empire from a variety of ways, with a single account or maybe two, mining is not necessarily one of the fastest, so if anyone with a single account is making more than you in null sec, you FAIL at eve, period, Biomass your character IMMEDIATELY! In my 8 years of playing having split my time almost equally, I can say from myexperience that it is much easier, in less time, for most to make ISK in null sec. Empire however still plays a vital role, and for some people the slower paced, not having to look over your shoulder game play style is more comfortable. You need to seriously look up the meaning of a sandbox game and get over yourself.
Pipa Porto
#253 - 2012-06-26 22:48:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

If you don't like the reward (this includes non-Isk rewards like psychological reward), quit. The income of mining is entirely set by the market of miners. If the income were too low, people would do other things until the income came up to a point where it's just barely worth it again.

Arcca's post wasn't a complaint about the profits of mining. Rather, it was an observation about the actual risk involved in highsec mining compared to the supposedly "unjustified" rewards.


Let me make this clear.

If you don't like the profit (income*-expenses**) of an activity, don't do it until the profit increases to a point where you like it again. HS mining takes no effort and results in income. The lack of effort is the problem, and that's only mitigated by ganking (which can be avoided with 100% success with a little bit of effort).



*Include ISK, Morale, Expected transition costs, etc. Literally everything good the activity gets you
**Include Time, effort, chance of loss, etc. Literally everything bad that happens due to the activity

I'm not arguing with your statement, it just isn't a relevant response as the post isn't complaining that the income/profit is too low. It's a counter to the statement that there should be no profit AT ALL by design, which is something that a diminishing population performing the activity cannot sufficiently counter as the return would be capped regardless of the number of participants. Yes, the risks can be mitigated, but that is true of all sec bands. That being the case, being able to mitigate risks should no more invalidate the ability to draw profit of an activity in highsec than it does anywhere else.


Nobody has a problem with HS miners making a profit. The issue is making a profit without any effort OR risk.

I can Mine in Null with no effort if I accept a LOT of risk.
Without HAG, I can mine in HS with no effort AND no risk.

Basically, pick one if you want to make a profit; effort or risk.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#254 - 2012-06-26 22:49:44 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
...

Nobody has a problem with HS miners making a profit. The issue is making a profit without any effort OR risk.

I can Mine in Null with no effort if I accept a LOT of risk.
Without HAG, I can mine in HS with no effort AND no risk.

Basically, pick one if you want to make a profit; effort or risk.

I can mine aligned for no risk and... oh... that is a little effort. Who knew?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2012-06-26 23:08:20 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

Nobody has a problem with HS miners making a profit. The issue is making a profit without any effort OR risk.

I can Mine in Null with no effort if I accept a LOT of risk.
Without HAG, I can mine in HS with no effort AND no risk.

Basically, pick one if you want to make a profit; effort or risk.

Looking at the quotes being originally referenced, it appears some people do. And some have issue with certain others even being in the game. But to the question of risk and/or effort, one of the things that gankers have been using as a mantra lately is that there is risk everywhere and that you subject yourself to it every time you undock.

This is true, and it's true everywhere. Highsec is not excluded, thus the statement that there is no risk is logically false, and the deaths of barges prove it to be realistically false.

As to effort, mining takes little of that. the act of mining also changes very little from the perspective of activity for the individual miner across sec bands when it comes to the act of putting ore in your hold. Yes, there are measures such as staying aligned that require effort, but this doesn't help you mine, but rather mitigate loss. And with ganking as popular as it is at the moment, no sec band is totally immune to having to take effort to mitigate risk.

We now have both risk and effort on miners in all sec bands, thus justifying levels of profit beyond "absolutely zero profit for veteran players" or "leaving highsec with nothing significant enough to allow any ship larger than a T1-fitted mining cruiser to make decent income." While you may not have said it, the post you were responding to was from a person responding to those that DO have a problem with anything being accomplished in highsec.
Pipa Porto
#256 - 2012-06-26 23:18:24 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

Nobody has a problem with HS miners making a profit. The issue is making a profit without any effort OR risk.

I can Mine in Null with no effort if I accept a LOT of risk.
Without HAG, I can mine in HS with no effort AND no risk.

Basically, pick one if you want to make a profit; effort or risk.

Looking at the quotes being originally referenced, it appears some people do. And some have issue with certain others even being in the game. But to the question of risk and/or effort, one of the things that gankers have been using as a mantra lately is that there is risk everywhere and that you subject yourself to it every time you undock.

This is true, and it's true everywhere. Highsec is not excluded, thus the statement that there is no risk is logically false, and the deaths of barges prove it to be realistically false.

As to effort, mining takes little of that. the act of mining also changes very little from the perspective of activity for the individual miner across sec bands when it comes to the act of putting ore in your hold. Yes, there are measures such as staying aligned that require effort, but this doesn't help you mine, but rather mitigate loss. And with ganking as popular as it is at the moment, no sec band is totally immune to having to take effort to mitigate risk.

We now have both risk and effort on miners in all sec bands, thus justifying levels of profit beyond "absolutely zero profit for veteran players" or "leaving highsec with nothing significant enough to allow any ship larger than a T1-fitted mining cruiser to make decent income." While you may not have said it, the post you were responding to was from a person responding to those that DO have a problem with anything being accomplished in highsec.


Without HAG(suicide ganks), what risk do miners face?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#257 - 2012-06-26 23:21:48 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Without HAG(suicide ganks), what risk do miners face?

Low profit from overpopulation.Big smile
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#258 - 2012-06-26 23:23:22 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Without HAG(suicide ganks), what risk do miners face?

None, but this only becomes relevant if ganking stops. I don't see that happening.

Also, on that same note, what risk does any sec band have when the element of non-consensual PvP is removed?
Pipa Porto
#259 - 2012-06-26 23:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Without HAG(suicide ganks), what risk do miners face?

None, but this only becomes relevant if ganking stops. I don't see that happening.

Also, on that same note, what risk does any sec band have when the element of non-consensual PvP is removed?


None, but their jobs require more effort than AFK mining.

EDIT: Grammar, do I speek it.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tarku Huhtsu
Doomheim
#260 - 2012-06-26 23:27:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

If you don't like the reward (this includes non-Isk rewards like psychological reward), quit. The income of mining is entirely set by the market of miners. If the income were too low, people would do other things until the income came up to a point where it's just barely worth it again.

Arcca's post wasn't a complaint about the profits of mining. Rather, it was an observation about the actual risk involved in highsec mining compared to the supposedly "unjustified" rewards.


Let me make this clear.

If you don't like the profit (income*-expenses**) of an activity, don't do it until the profit increases to a point where you like it again. HS mining takes no effort and results in income. The lack of effort is the problem, and that's only mitigated by ganking (which can be avoided with 100% success with a little bit of effort).



*Include ISK, Morale, Expected transition costs, etc. Literally everything good the activity gets you
**Include Time, effort, chance of loss, etc. Literally everything bad that happens due to the activity

I'm not arguing with your statement, it just isn't a relevant response as the post isn't complaining that the income/profit is too low. It's a counter to the statement that there should be no profit AT ALL by design, which is something that a diminishing population performing the activity cannot sufficiently counter as the return would be capped regardless of the number of participants. Yes, the risks can be mitigated, but that is true of all sec bands. That being the case, being able to mitigate risks should no more invalidate the ability to draw profit of an activity in highsec than it does anywhere else.


Nobody has a problem with HS miners making a profit. The issue is making a profit without any effort OR risk.

I can Mine in Null with no effort if I accept a LOT of risk.
Without HAG, I can mine in HS with no effort AND no risk.

Basically, pick one if you want to make a profit; effort or risk.



If your mining in null you will be mining in your Alliance Space, nil or very little risk, you will also be mining AB or C Ore types high return [unless your cognitively deficient]. The average Hi Sec miner faces varying degrees of risk [depending on their situational awareness] for relatively poor to mediocre returns, the only real benefit the Hi Sec Miner has is the absence of sociopathic overlord telling them how to live. So really what is the purpose of the lies, deceptions, hate and misinformation being promulgated around the Hi Sec miners? It unlikely despite all the hype that it’s an endeavour to encourage people to move to null, [unless its to be Slaves for the sociopathic overlord or targets for his lackeys] the more likely scenario would probably be that the sociopathic overlord’s intent is a low sec Empire with all the benefits of Hi Sec with none of the restraints. A utopia reserved only for those lackeys who have kissed his ring, while the rest of Eve’s population are consigned to the ghettos.