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New Ship Rig: Expanded Drone Bay (edited)
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PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#21 - 2012-06-04 19:48:01 UTC
Ricand Michelliaos wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Essentially a nerf to all frigates, and their ability to take on larger targets. It also removes one of the main advantages of the Gallente race.

Say no to racial homogonization.


It's not allowing ships to bump up the size of drone they can have launched, it's just making it so they can carry more. If we make it a flat amount across the board, I think that it'd be pretty balanced.

Let's say we have two ships:
Ship A is a Frigate with a 25m3 Drone Bay and a 25m3 Bandwidth. It can either Drop a flight of Lights, 2 mediums and a light, or 1 Heavy/ Sentry. It puts a Drone Bay Expander in it's Rig Slot for 200 Calibration. It gains 25m3 Of Drone Bay space, allowing him to have another flight of lights, 2 more mediums and another light, or 1 more heavy/sentry. Despite the 50m3 Drone bay size, It's still only able to control 25m3 of Bandwidth.
What this means, though, is perhaps, a flight of damage drones and a flight of utility drones. You could swap at any time for either, but could not have both out, cause of the Ship's Bandwidth limitation.

Ship B is a Battleship with a 250m3 Drone bay and a 125m3 Bandwidth. You can carry quite a bit as it is. If you throw on a Drone Bay expander, you gain 25m3 as well, pulling you up to 275. So you get the same thing a Frigate would, only it's less useful to the Battleship.
Again, Just because it got an extra 25m3 of space doesn't mean it gets a bump up to bandwidth. (what would you even need that extra 25m3 for anyways? You can have a full set of heavies/ Sentries anyways). It also doesn't mean you can have extra drones out on top of the 5 drone limit. It just means you got 25m3 of extra drone space.



Uhm. I'm not stupid.

I understood the point your making from the beginning. I know it isn't about bandwidth but about bay space. I fly gallente, I know the difference.

The point, is that now instead of having a single flight of warrior 2s, hurricanes could now have two flights, making taking down hurricanes in groups of frigates (an already risky proposition) even more retardedly dangerous. In addition to worrying about being kited, neuted, alpha'ed, web/scrammed or warriored.

Instead of one flight of ECM drones, they now have 2.

One of the main issues in trying to fly frigates is tacking out drones to reduce BC applicable dps. Having to deal with two flights of warriors essentially makes all battlecruisers, other frigates, and destroyers more viable and makes ships like t2 frigates near useless against larger ships.

Keep in mind that bay space means a lot of utility, be it ECM drones, web drones (woot new drones), or simple anti-frig drones. So as I said, it nerfs many smaller ships abilities.

In addition, Gallente are often favoured (if you want to say they are flown at all, but one reason being) for their drone bays. giving that ability to everyone essentially nerfs that reasoning.

It would be akin to adding a rig that lets you choose your damage type. Every single amarr boat would have it, and it would take away a large reason and advantage that minmatar and caldari have over the other races.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#22 - 2012-06-04 20:22:10 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Uhm. I'm not stupid.

I understood the point your making from the beginning. I know it isn't about bandwidth but about bay space. I fly gallente, I know the difference.

The point, is that now instead of having a single flight of warrior 2s, hurricanes could now have two flights, making taking down hurricanes in groups of frigates (an already risky proposition) even more retardedly dangerous. In addition to worrying about being kited, neuted, alpha'ed, web/scrammed or warriored.

Instead of one flight of ECM drones, they now have 2.

One of the main issues in trying to fly frigates is tacking out drones to reduce BC applicable dps. Having to deal with two flights of warriors essentially makes all battlecruisers, other frigates, and destroyers more viable and makes ships like t2 frigates near useless against larger ships.

Keep in mind that bay space means a lot of utility, be it ECM drones, web drones (woot new drones), or simple anti-frig drones. So as I said, it nerfs many smaller ships abilities.

In addition, Gallente are often favoured (if you want to say they are flown at all, but one reason being) for their drone bays. giving that ability to everyone essentially nerfs that reasoning.

It would be akin to adding a rig that lets you choose your damage type. Every single amarr boat would have it, and it would take away a large reason and advantage that minmatar and caldari have over the other races.

Why would you assume your target did not already have the appropriate drone type handy?

It won't launch the drones faster, or recover them quicker, so are you relying on them making poor choices? Will this rig somehow give them insight into drone use they previously lacked?

Your argument seems based on the theory your target wont be prepared for you. They will, however, be prepared for you as a newly available backup option.

I can't say this is game-breaking, even though you seemed convinced it spells frigate doom.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#23 - 2012-06-04 20:59:07 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Uhm. I'm not stupid.

I understood the point your making from the beginning. I know it isn't about bandwidth but about bay space. I fly gallente, I know the difference.

The point, is that now instead of having a single flight of warrior 2s, hurricanes could now have two flights, making taking down hurricanes in groups of frigates (an already risky proposition) even more retardedly dangerous. In addition to worrying about being kited, neuted, alpha'ed, web/scrammed or warriored.

Instead of one flight of ECM drones, they now have 2.

One of the main issues in trying to fly frigates is tacking out drones to reduce BC applicable dps. Having to deal with two flights of warriors essentially makes all battlecruisers, other frigates, and destroyers more viable and makes ships like t2 frigates near useless against larger ships.

Keep in mind that bay space means a lot of utility, be it ECM drones, web drones (woot new drones), or simple anti-frig drones. So as I said, it nerfs many smaller ships abilities.

In addition, Gallente are often favoured (if you want to say they are flown at all, but one reason being) for their drone bays. giving that ability to everyone essentially nerfs that reasoning.

It would be akin to adding a rig that lets you choose your damage type. Every single amarr boat would have it, and it would take away a large reason and advantage that minmatar and caldari have over the other races.

Why would you assume your target did not already have the appropriate drone type handy?

It won't launch the drones faster, or recover them quicker, so are you relying on them making poor choices? Will this rig somehow give them insight into drone use they previously lacked?

Your argument seems based on the theory your target wont be prepared for you. They will, however, be prepared for you as a newly available backup option.

I can't say this is game-breaking, even though you seemed convinced it spells frigate doom.


Added utility of drone bay variety != frigate doom of 2 flights of warriors.

The two arguments against the rig are different points.

2 flights of drones doesn't make BCs invulnerable to frigates, but it certainly makes it much harder to take them down. There is a reason frigate fleets tend to avoid myrmidons, because it is just ridiculous to try and take down all of their drones while still applying DPS and keeping a tackle while avoiding their guns.

Ricand Michelliaos
Estrale Frontiers
#24 - 2012-06-05 05:17:32 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Uhm. I'm not stupid.

I understood the point your making from the beginning. I know it isn't about bandwidth but about bay space. I fly gallente, I know the difference.

The point, is that now instead of having a single flight of warrior 2s, hurricanes could now have two flights, making taking down hurricanes in groups of frigates (an already risky proposition) even more retardedly dangerous. In addition to worrying about being kited, neuted, alpha'ed, web/scrammed or warriored.

Instead of one flight of ECM drones, they now have 2.

One of the main issues in trying to fly frigates is tacking out drones to reduce BC applicable dps. Having to deal with two flights of warriors essentially makes all battlecruisers, other frigates, and destroyers more viable and makes ships like t2 frigates near useless against larger ships.

Keep in mind that bay space means a lot of utility, be it ECM drones, web drones (woot new drones), or simple anti-frig drones. So as I said, it nerfs many smaller ships abilities.

In addition, Gallente are often favoured (if you want to say they are flown at all, but one reason being) for their drone bays. giving that ability to everyone essentially nerfs that reasoning.

It would be akin to adding a rig that lets you choose your damage type. Every single amarr boat would have it, and it would take away a large reason and advantage that minmatar and caldari have over the other races.

Why would you assume your target did not already have the appropriate drone type handy?

It won't launch the drones faster, or recover them quicker, so are you relying on them making poor choices? Will this rig somehow give them insight into drone use they previously lacked?

Your argument seems based on the theory your target wont be prepared for you. They will, however, be prepared for you as a newly available backup option.

I can't say this is game-breaking, even though you seemed convinced it spells frigate doom.


Added utility of drone bay variety != frigate doom of 2 flights of warriors.

The two arguments against the rig are different points.

2 flights of drones doesn't make BCs invulnerable to frigates, but it certainly makes it much harder to take them down. There is a reason frigate fleets tend to avoid myrmidons, because it is just ridiculous to try and take down all of their drones while still applying DPS and keeping a tackle while avoiding their guns.



You're arguing that all it takes to make or break Frigate combat is 2 extra Warriors in a Hurricane. I doubt that the Extra 45-ish DPS would change PvP too much, because they fit that rig instead of a Trimark or a Resist Rig or what-have-you, meaning yes, +2 drones, but losing EHP.

You also Assume that they will throw new drones out as soon as those 5 are dead. You assume they have the EXACT drones to deal with you. You assume they are prepared for Anti-frigate work. You assume they are completely calm and collected and make every decision correctly. You assume they are experienced PvPers that know how to handle frigates.
There are too many variables in PvP to say that 10m3 of drone bay space ruins Frigate combat.

As for your Rig that changes damage type, I'd support that idea. I think Caldari and Minmatar have been OP with their ability to use any damage type. Lasers and Hybrids need a Damage type buff.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#25 - 2012-06-05 16:02:45 UTC
Ricand Michelliaos wrote:


You're arguing that all it takes to make or break Frigate combat is 2 extra Warriors in a Hurricane. I doubt that the Extra 45-ish DPS would change PvP too much, because they fit that rig instead of a Trimark or a Resist Rig or what-have-you, meaning yes, +2 drones, but losing EHP.

You also Assume that they will throw new drones out as soon as those 5 are dead. You assume they have the EXACT drones to deal with you. You assume they are prepared for Anti-frigate work. You assume they are completely calm and collected and make every decision correctly. You assume they are experienced PvPers that know how to handle frigates.
There are too many variables in PvP to say that 10m3 of drone bay space ruins Frigate combat.

As for your Rig that changes damage type, I'd support that idea. I think Caldari and Minmatar have been OP with their ability to use any damage type. Lasers and Hybrids need a Damage type buff.


Heh, I agree on the damage type rig bit, but it will never happen.

when creating new modules you have to be aware of all the applications and scenarios it may be used in. It would be silly and irresponsible to throw out new modules without considering how and why people are going to use them.

Will every ship fit them and be designed for anti-frig stuff? No, but you can't say that everyone will/won't fit a certain way.
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