These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Is the penalty for suicide-ganking too low?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#121 - 2012-06-01 11:51:43 UTC
HVAC Repairman wrote:
the gankee loses his ship and gains insurance (heh probably not knowing hi-sec), the ganker loses his ship and loses security status

if anything hi-sec ganking should be buffed



losses a ship usualy worth at max 10m with fittings, looses sec status, gets loot drops from miners, transfers isk etc to anotehr alt, gets biomassed, new char made trained in a few hours, rince repeat....

tbt think CCP should put a 1 week delay on chr deletion, you delete it, you have to wait 1 week for it to actualy happen, means you either have to have more accounts or you cant gank as frequently with VERY LITTLE risk vs reward....
Julii Hakaari
Hakaari Inc.
#122 - 2012-06-01 11:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Julii Hakaari
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You're either not paying attention, ignoring the fact or you just haven't seen the forums of many other games. It's universal.

No, it's not, and I'm not only speaking about games. EVE promotes itself as a hard and cold game, which it is, but it doesn't justify the hate on these forums since last I checked these forums aren't in-character. It must take a lot of energy to hate like that. Why would anyone do it voluntarily? I'm asking a serious question. I hate EU-politicians and my own country's politicians, so I stay far, far away from news about how they want to interfere with my life even more. Why, then, would anyone voluntarily keep hating like you do? Unless you start building gas-chambers, people will remain different, and just like I can't do anything at the moment (until I build my own gas-chambers) about those EU-politicians smoking cigars while they rule a continent undemocratically elected, just like that you can't do anything about people disagreeing with you here.

Stop the hate, friend; your life will be the better for it.

Mallak Azaria wrote:
The consequences are already there. They're far higher for ganking than they are for being ganked. There is literally no justification for raising the consequences for the ganker further at this point, considering they were raised 6 months ago. That's pretty much why I made the other thread :p

No, they're not, and I honestly don't have time to force you out from your delusion.

"Completely un-phased? You think I'm totally lacking in any phasing? The idea that I'm anything less than half-phased I actually find offensive. It greatly phases me."
Adeena Torcfist
R3b3llium
Get Off My Lawn
#123 - 2012-06-01 12:01:45 UTC
kill rights for 30 days, isnt enough in my opinion. Hiding in low/null when they've committed the crime doesnt help matters. Even ive gone after gankers before, but your so outnumbered, its hard to pick them off to gain revenge.

15 mins Global countdown? big whoop. after a minute or two, they can just dock up & wait out the timer anyways in their pods. ISK fines based on their sec status's would hopefully curb some of the aggressors.

If you want to gank, use the war declaration system. Thats what its for. If your out mining or mission running & get ganked, well,then i have no sympathy for you anyway. thats your own fault.
Thora Ash
Doomheim
#124 - 2012-06-01 14:18:04 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Julii Hakaari wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
So then how would your proposed choice between exile and a bribe be anything other than paying isk if you want to escape sec hits?

It wasn't a thought through penalty. Someone asked for an example and I delivered it.

Penalties should be much more thought through with consideration to the economy and the affect it would have on the game as a whole.


Ok, come up with a harsher penalty that doesn't break the rule on NPCs podding, doesn't impose artificial travel restrictions, and doesn't automagically whisk isk out of the ganker's wallet. Since none of those things happen in game currently, there's no reason to add them.

I'll wait.


What about detaining the offending capsuleer for a given time? Concord captures the pod and releases the pilot after questioning or whatever. Maybe factoring in sec standing.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-06-01 14:21:32 UTC
HVAC Repairman wrote:
the gankee loses his ship and gains insurance (heh probably not knowing hi-sec), the ganker loses his ship and loses security status

if anything hi-sec ganking should be buffed


tl;dr:

Carebear loses 300 mil hulk

Goon loses a Catalyst
bongsmoke
Visine Red
420 Chronicles of EvE
#126 - 2012-06-01 14:22:38 UTC
Julii Hakaari wrote:


tl;dr: suicide-ganking is too easy and should have greater penalty; life for suicide gankers should be no easier than life for miners. EVE is a system built on risk/reward - and the reward for suicide-ganking outweighs the risk of doing it.

Thus ends the thoughts of Gaius Julius - oh, no, wait - Julii Hakaari (doesn't sound at all as awesome, now does it?).

What are your thoughts? And, yet again, please, for goodness sake, act as the intelligent EVE-gamers your propose yourselves to be.

Regards,
J. H.



Only cause of my hatred of goons do I support this.

Let poop in the sandbox together!
Fenella
Dangermouse Inc.
#127 - 2012-06-01 14:31:40 UTC
ISK loss for ganking is inconsequential, Sec penalty is easily circumvented, kill rights are a joke.

What we need is Community Service and tagging.

Force the aggressors to clean grafiti off the side of a station in a pod for 4 hours every time they gank a barge before they can leave the system or dock.

That'll teach em !

/shakes fist
Adeena Torcfist
R3b3llium
Get Off My Lawn
#128 - 2012-06-01 14:58:01 UTC
Inconsequential or not, the ISK lost from the miner/victim, & the insurance payed should come out of the gankee's wallet. & the full ISK amount, not some chump-ass insurance quote thats broken on T2 ships it is currently.

& if he/she has no ISK in their wallet, well, i fully expect a negative wallet. Then ship replacement programs will be funded outta their own wallets.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#129 - 2012-06-01 20:49:53 UTC
Valya Niell wrote:
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
No, the price is not too low.

The price is that gankers eventually lose enough security status to not be able to go into any hisec system owned by one of the four Empires without attracting a massive fleet of NPCs that chase him through space and time, and can alpha all but the largest and most heavily tanked ships.

To fix this, a ganker must grind missions in low and null until his standing and security status are at a level that he can enter a hisec system without attracting said fleet of uber-ganky NPC police.

What's the one thing a ganker supposedly hates most of all? Grinding. What does he eventually have to do if he wants to continue ganking? Grind.

Seems a fitting punishment to me.


no grinding required, merely another alt with a relatively short training time to get back out and do it again. (correct me if i'm wrong)

i am curious though as to how many times you can gank people before you can't exist in high sec. (i.e. please tell me)


The penalty for recycling alts to escape Sec Status hits is a ban, and from what I understand, that ban comes pretty quickly and easily.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#130 - 2012-06-01 20:57:06 UTC
Valya Niell wrote:
Degren wrote:
Yes, the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low.

If you are suicide ganked, you should be auto-podded. I think this is a fair penalty, as the suicide-ganker has to track you down, plot and scheme and LOSE HIS SHIP for attacking your immortal, guarded self.


What do you suicide gank in? how much does it and your gear cost? how hard is it to use said equipment to break the tank on a hulk and how much do you gain from salvage and loot?


A properly tanked Hulk has 30k EHP, all T2 Fit. A gang of 4 (20m Isk) Catalysts can kill that before CONCORD arrives. Put some RR on the field in the Hulks favor and that number jumps to about 15 Catalysts (75m) or 6 Tornados (380m).

A Hulk drops ~10m in loot and ~10m in salvage (average). Tanking your Hulk, with no RR means it takes 4 people to break even on the gank and split a 10m Isk bounty (which isn't something to balance on, cause it's not a game mechanic). With RR, your Hulk cannot be profitably ganked.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#131 - 2012-06-01 20:57:59 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
HVAC Repairman wrote:
the gankee loses his ship and gains insurance (heh probably not knowing hi-sec), the ganker loses his ship and loses security status

if anything hi-sec ganking should be buffed



losses a ship usualy worth at max 10m with fittings, looses sec status, gets loot drops from miners, transfers isk etc to anotehr alt, gets biomassed, new char made trained in a few hours, rince repeat....

tbt think CCP should put a 1 week delay on chr deletion, you delete it, you have to wait 1 week for it to actualy happen, means you either have to have more accounts or you cant gank as frequently with VERY LITTLE risk vs reward....


Biomassing Alts to escape Sec status hits is a bannable offense.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#132 - 2012-06-01 21:00:08 UTC
Adeena Torcfist wrote:
kill rights for 30 days, isnt enough in my opinion. Hiding in low/null when they've committed the crime doesnt help matters. Even ive gone after gankers before, but your so outnumbered, its hard to pick them off to gain revenge.

15 mins Global countdown? big whoop. after a minute or two, they can just dock up & wait out the timer anyways in their pods. ISK fines based on their sec status's would hopefully curb some of the aggressors.

If you want to gank, use the war declaration system. Thats what its for. If your out mining or mission running & get ganked, well,then i have no sympathy for you anyway. thats your own fault.


If you want the WarDec system to be used like that, then players shouldn't be able to quit a corp as soon as a Dec comes in. They shouldn't be able to quit at all while a Dec is live. Ohh the tears we'd see then.

Right now a Wardec just means players quit corp.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#133 - 2012-06-01 21:01:43 UTC
Adeena Torcfist wrote:
Inconsequential or not, the ISK lost from the miner/victim, & the insurance payed should come out of the gankee's wallet. & the full ISK amount, not some chump-ass insurance quote thats broken on T2 ships it is currently.

& if he/she has no ISK in their wallet, well, i fully expect a negative wallet. Then ship replacement programs will be funded outta their own wallets.


Cool, so now Suicide ganking would be a funny new Isk faucet. That's a remarkably (though not surprisingly) stupid idea.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#134 - 2012-06-01 21:07:18 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:



A properly tanked Hulk has 30k EHP, all T2 Fit. A gang of 4 (20m Isk) Catalysts can kill that before CONCORD arrives. Put some RR on the field in the Hulks favor and that number jumps to about 15 Catalysts (75m) or 6 Tornados (380m).

A Hulk drops ~10m in loot and ~10m in salvage (average). Tanking your Hulk, with no RR means it takes 4 people to break even on the gank and split a 10m Isk bounty (which isn't something to balance on, cause it's not a game mechanic). With RR, your Hulk cannot be profitably ganked.


If only the killmails showed the fits of the gankers for proof of the fits.

Loss of the gankers ships is a calculated loss and is of benefit to them in whatever way they see it as benefiting them.

Jumping into something expecting to win and invariably losing is what a loss truly is.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#135 - 2012-06-01 21:13:49 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:



A properly tanked Hulk has 30k EHP, all T2 Fit. A gang of 4 (20m Isk) Catalysts can kill that before CONCORD arrives. Put some RR on the field in the Hulks favor and that number jumps to about 15 Catalysts (75m) or 6 Tornados (380m).

A Hulk drops ~10m in loot and ~10m in salvage (average). Tanking your Hulk, with no RR means it takes 4 people to break even on the gank and split a 10m Isk bounty (which isn't something to balance on, cause it's not a game mechanic). With RR, your Hulk cannot be profitably ganked.


If only the killmails showed the fits of the gankers for proof of the fits.

Loss of the gankers ships is a calculated loss and is of benefit to them in whatever way they see it as benefiting them.

Jumping into something expecting to win and invariably losing is what a loss truly is.


Loss of the Miner's ships is a calculated loss and if it's not of benefit to them in whatever way they see it as benefiting them, they should have calculated better.

What you undock in is the stakes you are willing to lose. Do high rollers complain that people at the penny slots don't lose as much?

Tank your Hulk
Mine in Something other than a Hulk
Use a short range D-Scan
Mine in a mission space
Mine in a grav site
Mine in a hidden belt (asteroids off grid of a normal belt)
Keep some SEBOED AC Tornados with you to kill the gankers as soon as they light up

All of these things you can use to reduce the chances of you losing your ship. Gankers don't get the option of not losing their ship, so they adapted and use cheaper ships; why shouldn't miners have to adapt?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Horace Nancyball
The Whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch
#136 - 2012-06-01 21:19:04 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
The suicide ganker is 100% guaranteed to lose his ship, some modules, and sec status. It is the highest risk activity in EVE. Anyone can acknowledge that.


Agreed. Also doing it more than once or twice will also make life in hi-sec really irritating avoiding the police all the time.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#137 - 2012-06-01 21:33:06 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
HVAC Repairman wrote:
the gankee loses his ship and gains insurance (heh probably not knowing hi-sec), the ganker loses his ship and loses security status

if anything hi-sec ganking should be buffed


tl;dr:

Carebear loses 300 mil hulk

Goon loses a Catalyst


Carebear chooses to not tank a 300mil Hulk

Ganker exploits Carebear's Laziness/Stupidity

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Bill Loney
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2012-06-01 21:41:41 UTC
Horace Nancyball wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
The suicide ganker is 100% guaranteed to lose his ship, some modules, and sec status. It is the highest risk activity in EVE. Anyone can acknowledge that.


Agreed. Also doing it more than once or twice will also make life in hi-sec really irritating avoiding the police all the time.

Which is why they use alts, we all know that.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#139 - 2012-06-01 21:50:52 UTC
Bill Loney wrote:
Horace Nancyball wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
The suicide ganker is 100% guaranteed to lose his ship, some modules, and sec status. It is the highest risk activity in EVE. Anyone can acknowledge that.


Agreed. Also doing it more than once or twice will also make life in hi-sec really irritating avoiding the police all the time.

Which is why they use alts, we all know that.


Miners use alts for their convenience too. So long as they're not recycling alts (CCP'll ban them for that), why shouldn't gankers have access to the same tools miners do?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#140 - 2012-06-01 21:54:52 UTC
Julii Hakaari wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
there ought to be enough risk in putting me at risk to ensure i am 100% safe while afk mining at all times

I'm sitting here asking myself what I should reply. I see this ignorant and stupid post and I see that, of course - you're a goon, and I ask myself if I'm racist against goons or if I'm just a realist for not being surprised that ignorant, stupidity and goons walk hand in hand, but then I realize that I'm better off reading about Einstein's theory on relativity, so I walk away.


You are ignorant to believe that this is a pvp-optional game. It is not.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com