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Advocating for a real Eve banking system

Author
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-06-08 01:59:30 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:
warzonetemp wrote:
AM Boveri wrote:
Again you're just talking "what if's" without providing any true ideas or suggestions. I have yet to see you put up anything constructive.


Actually the last post was answers and explain why it's better. The Mechanics were already outlined earlier in one of my long posts. (I should have gone into programming to be honest), examples of innovations and suggestions i.e. A separate class of incorporation, fixed reserve amounts for isk as applied by CCP, the whole loan system with collateral as the basis, new rules for leadership under a co-op basis instead of share structure, and so on....

Hell, I even pointed out that transparency is needed with a small tweak to API keys, which is very doable for CCP.

Look like you weren't paying attention as I had outlined everything and how it'd work.


You may be an accountant in real life, but trying to apply real life 'game mechanics' to a totally different system is not as easy as you seem to think. You outline rules that have glaring holes, and when people point out the holes, you challenge them to fix them for you. Honestly, the benefits to the game do not outweigh the wasted time for people to try to solve this problem.

If you want to read up on some basis on how this can be tackled, (NOTE: as a theoretical exercise ONLY, SPOILER ALERT: CCP won't bite, as it would be too hard to implement) Instead of trying to draw blood from a stone in this forum, just google for 'kaelie onren anti money laundering' and read. I can't be bothered to argue with you points that have been many times discussed and discounted already.



Sounds strange, since you've added in no real counter except saying others have pointed out faults in the system I described.

Every point you guys have pointed to have been countered by me, if you don't like the reasoning, then I ask if you have a better idea.

As for applying real life mechanics and game play, Eve in its conception is meant to mirror real world dynamics. Banking is merely one facet of the issue.

If you really believe money laundering is the only outcome of this system, then why even make a point in the first place. Seems like you are scared of adding this dynamic for the ramifications it could mean.

A dedicated banking system is something that players have to put real time into, I am not saying it will occur only through CCP. You need a player base to move towards integrating it and putting in real time into its maintenance.

Unlike the other half thought out ideas, mine happens to be a hollistic approach that relies on both developer and player interaction to make it successful.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-06-10 07:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
Yeah you caught me. I'm scared of this. That's exactly why I tried advocating the foundation rules for this system a year ago. How are you coming to this conclusion anyway?

You'r holistic approach is about as tangible and practical as homeopathy. Lots of talk, no practical solutions.
I don't see any solution In your counter points that will stop people from using alts to execute scams yet.

If you like real life analogies so much, where is your counter for "if we had no jails or white collar crime laws, or an SEC, how would you keep banks from ripping people off?

Who in ccp is going to monitor all the money transactions to figure out what is wrong or right?

If we boil down your proposal it essentially is one that advocates a central bank that will pay interest on deposits and loan out money for return. Not a bad idea in of itself. But not a good idea in eve because of 2 tantamount reasons:

1) inflation is already a bad problem in eve. Risk free interest only makes it worse.
People may not want to play as often as others. Inflation into a game is bad. Look at WOW.
The market is destroyed there.

2) if eve bank made loans I would be first in line to borrow money and make 1 tritanium for 1billion isk to my alts.
How is ccp going to make this illegal without anti money laundering laws?

If you have any other counters im all ears but please make sure you back them up with facts and not hope in 'if we all work together we can make it work' naïveté.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#43 - 2012-06-10 09:11:13 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:

1) inflation is already a bad problem in eve. Risk free interest only makes it worse.
People may not want to play as often as others. Inflation into a game is bad. Look at WOW.
The market is destroyed there. .


Hulkageddon, drone poop, mineral inflation. Goonswarm actively encouraging the continuation of hulkageddon with moon mining abuse.

Trust me, Eve's economy is heading the same way if PvPers have their way with the sandbox.. erm.. i mean pvp fortbox.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Dantes Wolf
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-06-10 11:38:53 UTC
I am *not* a banker.

But imho, if it can be done, somehow, even in spite of arguements, I don't see why it shouldn't.

All i see from the nayers, on the other hand, is people throwing conversative crap after an idea that, at least in its essence, is pretty revolutionary, at least to the indy and non-pvp groups of the gamecore - Idk if its a majestic idea, idk anything about banking and numbers, but if it can be done, then let it, imho - EVE is always mature for more growth, specially the daring turns.

Dantes

"Before you diagnose yourself with low selfesteem and depression, you should first make sure, that you are not just, in fact, surrounded by assholes".

Pi-zwei one
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-06-10 19:43:03 UTC
Wait, you want a system which forces me to give my iskies to somebody else? In EvE - Online? ..srsly?

Don't know what you're smoking, but please gimme a share, I want to try it myself.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-06-11 00:12:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
Asuka Solo wrote:
Kaelie Onren wrote:

1) inflation is already a bad problem in eve. Risk free interest only makes it worse.
People may not want to play as often as others. Inflation into a game is bad. Look at WOW.
The market is destroyed there. .


Hulkageddon, drone poop, mineral inflation. Goonswarm actively encouraging the continuation of hulkageddon with moon mining abuse.

Trust me, Eve's economy is heading the same way if PvPers have their way with the sandbox.. erm.. i mean pvp fortbox.


Actually war helps the economy. And all the stuff the PvPers do do not directly cause inflation, in fact the opposite is much more likely. The kind of economy destroying inflation of WoW I'm talking about is the kind where prices fluctuate so wildly that the value of goods cannot be sufficiently relied upon, thus people cannot trust the ccy to keep its value and horde high worth items instead. Thus artificially making those items too expensive for non rich players to purchase for actual legitimate use.

In eve he value of isk is monitored constantly. (any serious self proclaimed economist knows about the QEN) and as of the last presentation at fanfest, there are still too many isk faucets vs sinks. So hulkageddon is good. Blowing up things is good.

You want to pool resources, as somebody already mentioned you can do this yourself in your own corp already.

The only point hat I think has merit is perhaps an escrow service so that you can deposit collateral with them and they will hold collateral for loans in escrw, removing the possibility of player scams. These are player loans of course. I'm against NPC banks, because of the isk faucet reason and also because I believe the only accurate way to gauge the worth of collateral is human brains right now. (Given that collateral on loans will most likely be expensive but slow to move items, Jita prices won't be an accurate valuation and prone to manipulation. )

T summarize, I will support the creation of an EVE loan escrow custodial service but not NPC bank lending or deposits.
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-06-11 01:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: warzonetemp
Firstly, inflation is only a problem if money is secure the entire time. If a bank fails due to the scams that are running rampant, then in essence the isk is destroyed up to the insurance value for the account. In this system, each bank account, on further thinking, should be able to purchase additional monthly protection toward a certain level of protection with a set maximum level of protection. If you don't come online enough, then fine, insurance charges will eat up a portion of your isks if you bought it. If you don't buy insurance, then if the bank fails, you lose all the money deposited within it, minus the CCP small account guarantee. That's how modern banks work as you know for larger depositors, they can buy additional insurance beyond FDIC protection limits.

It is also true for how the ship insurance system is supposed to work; although good industrialists have been able to make some profits by scamming it in the past, which was mostly fixed.

In this way, I have created a new isk sink to offset the interest faucet, if players have to buy insurance to protect their accounts and isk. They can get interests to offset as well if the bank are running effectively and even make a goodl deal of profit if the banks are able to have higher interest than costs of insurance, but in the end, it breaks up your entire notion of inflation.

CCP can set up the insurance costs based on how much is being insured. Meaning NPC banks will usually costs you money to deposit, while being safer. An NPC bank can go belly up as well due to in-game issues, i.e. faction warfare and the new rules of engagement that CCP has proposed for the upcoming patch or simply put CCP wants to create deflation.

I know you might say, "wait won't this mean I can borrow money, default, then play the old insurance stealing game like old times with ships again?"

Not exactly, as insurance on accounts beyond the CCP minimum will have to have a time limit before being active, like 6 months. So even if you buy insurance for 1 billion isk in your own bank, then you collapse it immediately, you won't get more than the minimum CCP protection and lose a majority of your money. For 6 months, if you attempt this scam, I can tell you that regular PvE and industrialist can make that amount easily in building ships, running complexes, and doing wormhole sleepers. Even if you collapse the bank for insurance, you won't be optimizing your isk/time rate like the others.

This idea favors the industrialists and PvE, while penalizing scammers.

You won't have inflation if money supply can be shocked internally into deflation by people.

Second, The scamming issue is going to be hard one to chew, but I'll bite.

Each bank needs to have a set minimum amount of depositors and they need to have at least been active for 1 year in order to be set up. Corporations right now can be set up by one person or one person + alts. You might still be able to use a dozen alts, but if I set the minimum to 20 depositors, then you will need to buy atleast 20 plexes over 12 months before you can even start a bank (You really have that many billions of isk lying around, to run a scam). Time and resources will be your worst enemy, unless you are one of the richer Eve player alliances, who can afford to waste that much money.

_________________________

Are any of these beyond CCP to create or control? No, they are well within the powers to regulate. Setting up a minimum amount of players to incorporate has been something that should have been done years ago, but CCP did not do. Keeping an insurance system in place with monthly costs is well within CCP's control and will offset inflation, unless the bankers are smart with their investment and actually loan money to trusted players with good collateral and repayments. Then, you make money with your deposits in a player owned bank, if not then, you lose money in an NPC bank at the whim of CCP's in game lore, like a war between the Gallente and Amarr for instance driving up insurance values and causing you to lose money unless you invest it into the market to help the war effort (Tie in to faction warfare issues, possible).

This system rewards people who need money, wants to make money, and who wants to get items faster.

There is no fair and perfect capitalist system, just as any other economic model. However, it is better to open the door for people to try to make it work rather than stand and be scared of what it might unleash.

This system needs both sides to make it work, people with an eye to invest money and CCP to set up rules to get it there.

You seem to like my isk-collateral system at least, so why not move one step further and go for full Banking system.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-06-11 02:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
Quote:
Firstly, inflation is only a problem if money is secure the entire time. If a bank fails due to the scams that are running rampant, then in essence the isk is destroyed up to the insurance value for the account. In this system, each bank account, on further thinking, should be able to purchase additional monthly protection toward a certain level of protection with a set maximum level of protection. If you don't come online enough, then fine, insurance charges will eat up a portion of your isks if you bought it. If you don't buy insurance, then if the bank fails, you lose all the money deposited within it, minus the CCP small account guarantee. That's how modern banks work as you know for larger depositors, they can buy additional insurance beyond FDIC protection limits.


No, money is NOT destroyed if lost to scammers. Please re-read your ECON 101 textbook.
The money scammed is in the pockets of the scammers, so how is it destroyed? Unless you are advocating CCP actively 'delete' the money in the account of the scammer, which basically circles back to the same problem of how can you possibly determine scammers from legit business transactions? Back to the 'we don't have SEC agency' problem.

Your extra insurance won't work either. How do you determine a scam? Are you going to advocate CCP hire an entire insurance company (in real life) to model payouts, appropriate premiums, and most importantly, investigate claims? Seriously? If there was a magical formulaic computational way to do this, why do real life insurance companies need thousands of employees?

ie I setup bank with alt/alts, get $$$ deposits, I buy lots of protection against default and fraud. I get a friend to 'steal the vault'. I get my insurance paid. I bankrupt the bank. My co conspirators now have both scammed all the deposits AND doubled our loot with a false insurance claim (even if it is for your 'minimal' CCP guaranteed amount.) Your solution has done nothing but make the problem worse.

Quote:
In this way, I have created a new isk sink to offset the interest faucet, if players have to buy insurance to protect their accounts and isk. They can get interests to offset as well if the bank are running effectively and even make a goodl deal of profit if the banks are able to have higher interest than costs of insurance, but in the end, it breaks up your entire notion of inflation.


This statement is not grounded in fact. (how do you know that all these insurance purchases are going to eat up all the extra free floating cash moving around the system caused by your system? How exactly are you so sure of this? Because real life economists really want to know your secret!)

Quote:
You won't have inflation if money supply can be shocked internally into deflation by people.

Once again, real life economists would love to know how to actively create deflation (besides increasing taxes, which is the only real way of doing this). I don't think 'shocked into deflation' is a technical term or even one which makes much sense.


Quote:
Each bank needs to have a set minimum amount of depositors and they need to have at least been active for 1 year in order to be set up. Corporations right now can be set up by one person or one person + alts. You might still be able to use a dozen alts, but if I set the minimum to 20 depositors, then you will need to buy atleast 20 plexes over 12 months before you can even start a bank (You really have that many billions of isk lying around, to run a scam). Time and resources will be your worst enemy, unless you are one of the richer Eve player alliances, who can afford to waste that much money.

Are any of these beyond CCP to create or control? No, they are well within the powers to regulate. Setting up a minimum amount of players to incorporate has been something that should have been done years ago, but CCP did not do. Keeping an insurance system in place with monthly costs is well within CCP's control and will offset inflation, unless the bankers are smart with their investment and actually loan money to trusted players with good collateral and repayments. Then, you make money with your deposits in a player owned bank, if not then, you lose money in an NPC bank at the whim of CCP's in game lore, like a war between the Gallente and Amarr for instance driving up insurance values and causing you to lose money unless you invest it into the market to help the war effort (Tie in to faction warfare issues, possible).


Sorry, I forgot already. What stops me from setting up a bank corp like this today again? Just because I don't have a default risk free central bank interest rate that I can employ, doesn't stop me from operating a bank you know. It just means I can't be a lazy bank, and have to actually invest the deposits somewhere to make my money work.

So is the REAL reason you want NPC banks is because you are a RPGer and you really just love the idea that the world can be 'alive'? That GMs take a more active role in 'messing' with the game economy directly by way of making changes in the supply demand of isk? To that I say, in lore, planetary goverments do not use ISK. They use their own ccy. in real life, this system is open for abuse by bad GMs, and will be thrown out on the sole basis that it messes with our sandbox by purists.

Quote:
You seem to like my isk-collateral system at least, so why not move one step further and go for full Banking syst


Not sure if it was original to you. (collateral escrow) but sure, since I can't remember exactly I'll give you the credit. NO to NPC banking sorry. Setup your own bank and all the benefits you claim can be done already. Today. Without CCP work. You just need to find some friends to bank with. Maybe I will setup a bank myself. :) Would you deposit your isk with me?
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-06-11 03:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: warzonetemp
Probably won't, because there are no fail safes in the system, nor any prohibitions at the moment to counter an easy scam, where there is not even insurance against what I had said earlier.

Your point completely fails to take in the facts that insurance is the fundamental barrier that prevented the US banks from completely defaulting on accounts after the 2007-8 financial crisis or else everyone's deposits would have been taken.

Aside from the obvious difference between my model for eve and the US model, my regulations are simple and straight forward, the tax that you fail to see is inherent in the Insurance system and something modern economists have argued for against "static" currency sitting bank reserves today, i.e. a tax on static funds. Right now in the real world major corporations have several trillion dollars in reserve sitting as static cash, more than the paltry US government stimulus could ever muster under President Obama's failed attempts to recover.

Basically, if you read economic papers, the concept is a tax on capital reserves that are not being used for any productive value.

In eve, CCP can establish a permanent insurance system deducting out isk on bank accounts to reduce the money supply, while providing a service for how much you are protecting that money against theft. In this way, I am keeping "interest isk faucet" as you call it offset against the insurance costs at NPC banks, which would be safer than player owned banks nonetheless.

Only private banks can have higher interest returns than insurance costs; thus implementing my concept of a higher investment within Eve and a creation of more potential for players.

As for money disappearing, I have already explained the insurance and the difference between it and what is lost on an individual. As for the scammer's cash, they cannot steal too much before they are discovered with the other areas I outlined on transparency using API data adjustment from CCP (very doable if you have ever been charge of separate corp wallets) and Reserve requirement in any case.

Don't forget in all of this, I have a reserve requirement is in effect, if a bank fails due to loans, it won't be due to 1 loan or 100 loans, you will need to deplete the bank over a period of months before depositors figure what you are doing due to the deposit reserve that would be set up in my system aka the reason why you would never be able to take out 100 billion isk for 1 Tritanium. You can invest 100K for 1 Trit until you hit 1 billion isk outstanding, then you won't be able to borrow anymore. Every bank in the world has a maximum loan reserve rate, so I don't see why this formula will not work. Scammers are notoriously short sighted. Even if they can scam a few billion, they'll be not be able to do it as long as capital requirement exists.

That disproves you theory.

As for why we need new rules now and why there are no new banks start ups-

Can I ask you a few questions on why it is not possible now:

1. How can you view what is in the Bank's depository accounts?

2. Where can I get a list of the Corporation's founding members?

3. What type of insurance is covering these deposits?

4. What assets are present inside the Banking Corp and what have they invested or bought?

Even in real world businesses, you would get regular 10-K filings and know what the companies have on their books to investors, you would have a list of corporate directors and histories, an insurance on your accounts, and even something as simple as a total of your account balances.

At the moment, Eve has none of that, so how can you say that you can start a bank right now in Eve and not be tempted to cheat people out of their money.

You're way is based on an outdated concept that does not work in Eve, my way is imperfect, but at least I have ways to secure all the problems, even if certain leaders are crooks.

PS: Also, my limitation idea on insurance prevents your issue, if you haven't noticed isk/time ratio, a PvE or industrialist will always make more money than a scammer after the time has passed and their plexes are paid for, making robbing a bank impossible.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-06-11 03:48:11 UTC
Quote:

You seem to like my isk-collateral system at least, so why not move one step further and go for full Banking system


Because the first idea is good the second one is not.
The first does not require that people at CCP via code or GMs in place of NPC banks do the job of valuating assets. That is the thing that cannot be done reliably and will be prone to scams. Only people can value assets accurately, And people do presently. (you should really read Market Discussions forum more if you are interesting in banking and the economy of EVE)
There are a few folks who have earned a trusted reputation for corp/asset evaluation. But at the end of the day, when you take a loan from the bank, the bank needs to evaluate the worthiness of your collateral. No way this can be done automatically via NPC banks / code. So only real banks that can give out loans will be Player banks. If you run with the money, they keep collateral, if you don't repay, then they selloff your collateral to meet missed payments etc.

This will work FINE. Only element of risk presently is the chance that the collatoral holding corp is in cahoots with your bank, and runs off with it. So THIS and ONLY this, is a thing that CCP can implement for improvement and fostering of a savings and loans system in eve. (one run by PLAYER corps)
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-06-11 03:53:55 UTC
Look back up for my reply to your counter, Insurance is what economists have been pining for in the world for the last few years to get rid of excess static cash savings. That will deflate the eve economy, if money supply without investment is being pushed down after it hits a certain point to insure the accounts against bank failures versus interest payouts.

I also countered you on the theft thing again, read the top, a Capital Reserve Policy prevents scamming everyone's money.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-06-11 04:16:32 UTC
warzonetemp wrote:
snip .


I'm going to shorten your post to this:

Real world has accounting controls, EVE doesn't.
Real world has people looking for criminals and auditing these controls, EVE doesn't.
Real world comparisons are flawed because EVE is an artificial system. (unless you are advocating that CCP model planetary economies, famine, wars, and other planetary effects that affect the ebb and flow of isk from the Empires. Maybe you should ask MAXIS to create a EVE plugin called SIMEVEPlanet to solve this problem)

You failed to explain the biggest flaw in your insurance idea. (time and time again, resorting to 'look, it works in the real world!' arguements) --- > HOW do you expect CCP to be able to detect insurance frauds? What if GOONs decided to have fun with a bank, got 1000 of their minions to deposit to a bank, which causes this bank to buy insurance on their deposits, they invest some of that prudently, then GOONs organize a run on the bank? Cap reserve requirements are breached, and bank is defaulted? Insurance is claimed, now bank must go into bankruptcy court to determine which creditors are paid. Hmm... where is EVE's bankcruptcy court? How can any of this be handled fairly without such fundamental institutions in the universe? All said and done, the bank runner is blacklisted, and nobody is at fault. Its not illegal to deposit your money in a bank and ask for it back.

Quote:
Don't forget in all of this, I have a reserve requirement is in effect, if a bank fails due to loans, it won't be due to 1 loan or 100 loans, you will need to deplete the bank over a period of months before depositors figure what you are doing due to the deposit reserve that would be set up in my system aka the reason why you would never be able to take out 100 billion isk for 1 Tritanium. You can invest 100K for 1 Trit until you hit 1 billion isk outstanding, then you won't be able to borrow anymore. Every bank in the world has a maximum loan reserve rate, so I don't see why this formula will not work. Scammers are notoriously short sighted. Even if they can scam a few billion, they'll be not be able to do it as long as capital requirement exists.


I fail to follow you here. The 1 trit scam is just how to move money legally to alts to avoid reprocussions of scamming. Nothing to do with taking out a loan on a bank. The problem with NPC banks is that they cannot value collateral. See my other post.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-06-11 04:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
warzonetemp wrote:
if money supply without investment is being pushed down after it hits a certain point to insure the accounts against bank failures versus interest payouts.

I also countered you on the theft thing again, read the top, a Capital Reserve Policy prevents scamming everyone's money.


Who set's the insurance premiums? Are you going back to "CCP to hire an insurance company to manage Virtual Game economy" argument again? Or you think that periodic tuning by the 1 CCP economist is sufficient? How would you determine that 'too much floating money is not getting invested?' when you have no equity/bond market? EVE is a SPOT commodity only economy you know. No futures, no options, no OTC, no exchanges.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-06-11 04:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
Before you go off on a 'ME vs YOU' arguementative tone, which is a guaranteed way of turning off all the interested readers of this thread and CCP devs to label this as a 'rant thread' let's keep it constructive okay?

Let me remind you of my stance:

1) I like your idea of risk free fiduciary custodial services for collateral handling
2) I like your idea of some notion of PLAYER corps becoming banks and able to lend out and be insured to an extent. For this insurance, they must have cap requirements, and get charged tax on investment gains from deposits. Also, in order to start a bank, there must be an amount held in escrow of the bank founders own cash into creating shares of this new corp. There must be some way to lock in value to be lost if the bank defaults.
3) I do NOT like your idea of NPC banks. No algorithm could do what all the things required to run a bank.


Question for you. How do you propose to stop a bank lending to a 'friend' and not charging them any interest on it? Friend would be an alt
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-06-11 04:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: warzonetemp
We're talking in circles:

I don't think currently an Eve bank can be created as there is no insurance on accounts to give a minimum level of protection against scams.

You don't think my insurance system can work sufficiently as CCP should not be the one determining the rates (Excuse me, but isn't that a non-real world example of how Eve can be better than the world economy, because we can play with Deus Ex Machina mechanics). Also, doesn't an insurance inspired taxation system offset the risk of interest based isk faucets. It gives CCP more flexibility over monetary policy.

You have also not answered any of my questions about how the banks of Eve currently can work without transparency, without insurance, without listings of members, and without holding records. Your entire idea is much more flawed than what I have conceived, as players don't have any visible knowledge of what is in their hands or in their banks.

Also, why can't eve premium rates be set against each player's balance as intended by modern economist trying to end the problem of an economy with cash reserve fever like Eve? Won't it give the player's incentive to invest their money rather than sit there and lose it over time to insurance charges, which can be used to offset the losses for banks.

Also, when you hit the capital requirement, your bank won't automatically default until it hits a point, when there is no operating cash or reserve. In this case, you can't make a run for the banks, even if the you had 100 goons depositing, then taking it all out without depositors noticing. It's why transparency is so important and why currently any Bank in Eve is doomed if scammers are running it.

I don't think you can have a legitimate banking corp in eve without rules and regulations, along with insurance to maintain that they work.

NPC Banks are not meant to be good places to put your money, they are merely for starting out, they won't be able to loan out money like a player bank, small loans perhaps not exceeding 50 million for your first ships or miners, nothing more.

I am not advocating an NPC bank only in high sec thing, player owned banks will exist in high, low, and null sec.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2012-06-11 04:43:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
Quote:
You have also not answered any of my questions about how the banks of Eve currently can work without transparency, without insurance, without listings of members, and without holding records. Your entire idea is much more flawed than what I have conceived, as players don't have any visible knowledge of what is in their hands or in their banks.


Wait, aren't YOU the one arguing for these controls? Why all of a sudden MY idea is flawed? My idea was based on the same premise as YOURS. Which is controls to be added. NPC banks though, is flawed.

The problem is these controls, I do not believe that they can be reliably implemented. You cannot assume that accounting and reporting is the solution here. The solution is to incentivize bank owners not to want to default, by making sure owner have a stake they can lose if the bank goes bust.
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-06-11 04:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: warzonetemp
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Quote:
You have also not answered any of my questions about how the banks of Eve currently can work without transparency, without insurance, without listings of members, and without holding records. Your entire idea is much more flawed than what I have conceived, as players don't have any visible knowledge of what is in their hands or in their banks.


Wait, aren't YOU the one arguing for these controls? Why all of a sudden MY idea is flawed? My idea was based on the same premise as YOURS. Which is controls to be added. NPC banks though, is flawed.


You're advocating this point:

Quote:
Today. Without CCP work. You just need to find some friends to bank with. Maybe I will setup a bank myself. :) Would you deposit your isk with me?


Come on, the current banking model is deeply flawed and prone to scams constantly. Your weren't advocating for my points until I went into details on why they worked.

Currently without the things I listed, no bank in Eve is secure or even remotely worth depositing into. You need to have adjustment from Corporate incorporation, API fixes, and an insurance system to make this worthwhile for everyone, including CCP in their fight against inflation.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-06-11 05:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
warzonetemp wrote:


Come on, the current banking model is deeply flawed and prone to scams constantly. Your weren't advocating for my points until I went into details on why they worked.


Surprise! Fancy that! Sorry if I didn't fit your idea of a typical muppet who agrees to things without actual tangible explanations ;)
You'll find if you want to get actual intellectual responses on these forums you will have to be intellectual.

BTW, what part of your proposed controls cannot be currently done via the EVE API? Maybe you should focus your energy on listing out those actual tangible changes to proposed to Devs instead of broad sweeping economic philosophical monologues, and you will get my vote.

If these changes to the API are added, then player banks can work. NPC banks, will never work. (You'll note that my complaints about your entire proposal has always been on this point, since the beginning ) (I think these 'bank transparency' controls should be easy enough to be done by banks just setting up custom API and posting to public)

Problem with the insurance premium setting (sorry deux ex machina is not a tangible solution, its a method) is still one that who is CCP is going to monitor and tweak insurance premiums? Its a big task.


We can go on to develop this idea further, but its obvious we said all there needs to be said without going in circles. Let's leave it now for CCP to decide.
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-06-11 16:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: warzonetemp
We have debated as much as we could,

Three game changes are needed in my view beyond api

1. Insurance is absolutely necessary, along with its costs acting as an isk sink to counter interest accumulation.

2. New incorporation and operating rules for banking corps, reserve requirement is a definite.

3. The New isk collateral system that you seem to agree with me on in practice of player owned banks.

Npc banks are optional, they were meant mostly for relatively younger players to get enough money for their first drakes or hulks, not the financing of Pos or other big ticket items.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-06-12 06:22:27 UTC
+1 for dev/csm consideration (not on all points, but good enough)

I like the idea of better support for player banks, so that we can have more stable and less scam prone banking system. So that Phasor and EVEBank scandals cannot happen. Lot's of bankers like myself are just waiting for a better regulatory environment so that we can setup (legitamate) businesses.
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