These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A Plea for Rationale in the System of Natural Consequences

Author
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#601 - 2012-06-01 20:46:08 UTC
Valya Niell wrote:
on the bright side the outflux of miners has bottomed out the market... oh wait no because the suicide gankers have their own miners that produce stuff and eat the profit from resupplying the ganked...


I buy my ships off the market in Jita. So does every other ganker.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#602 - 2012-06-02 11:50:15 UTC
Llywelyn Emrys wrote:
Think of EVE as a libertarian paradise.

Oh, it's not that bad.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#603 - 2012-06-02 11:53:45 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Llywelyn Emrys wrote:
Think of EVE as a libertarian paradise.

Oh, it's not that bad.


Somalia in Space is equivalent and has a nice ring to it.

IB4 Butthurt Libertarians.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Powers Sa
#604 - 2012-06-16 19:30:32 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:
I do not live in my mother's basement.

I am fortunate enough to have full time employment as a fairly successful Solution Architect for a Global consulting firm. I play from a custom built home office and hotels all over the United States. My identity is defined as a father, a husband, and a businessman. Eve has woven itself in as an on-again, off-again diversion where for the last three years I can apply business acumen and some custom tools to build an industrial marketer and manufacturer.

Eve is a fun low pressure environment where I make the conscious choice to forgo combat and low sec rewards to maintain the low stress nature of this pursuit.

Recently, I was killed mining and even podded in high sec. Losses in my ship of 300mil plus, implant losses of something on the order of a billion and change. Why? Because CCP has chosen by its inaction to allow a loose coalition of players to reward collective behavior against the engineered system of penalties and policies that are intended to make high security zones a low risk, low reward environment.

I petition CCP to consider the policy and natural violations that the inaction to date represent, and also suggest a system of natural Consequences which may be of use in curbing such competitions like 'hulkageddon' - or at least limit them to the low- and null-sec systems where they belong.

Recognizing the Violations of CCP Policy

An external competition like hulkageddon depends upon players allying and indeed competing to determine which player is most willing to ignore the disincentives engineered into the game which protect players who participate in high security systems. Indeed the competition organizers have created systematic logs denoting and ridiculing the expressions of distress or outrage by affected players:

Quote:
" The same cannot be said for the 5000 poor fools that have been deshipped in the first half of this year’s Hulkageddon, with over a trillion isk in damages done so far. This hulkageddon has exceeded our wildest expectations. I am so very proud of all our great competitors, and remember the race for the gold is not yet over!"

- http://hulkageddon5.machine9.net/?p=96

Yet CCP has denoted conduct such as this which determines to interfere with the operation of the system and the enjoyment of other players as verboten through at least two provisions.

Quote:
"Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy. "

-http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp

The terms of service at http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp specifically forbids role playing that interferes with others enjoyment of the game as well as forbidding conduct which disallows others to enjoy the game.

By organizing large scale operations to eliminate players engaging in high sec mining operations, and entire sector of game play is disrupted. By CCP's own statistics, thousands of players have already been affected in this way to date.

Quote:
"A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account."

-http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336

In the Knowledge Base published by CCP, as well, we find a definition of griefing and its specific prohibition of players deriving a significant portion of their time to game tactics that derive their enjoyment through the harassment of other players ourside of genuine pvp conflict such as corporation wars.

Recognizing Inaction as Counter to Real Life Analogs

One of the other clear guides CCP has applied to player conduct is the consideration of the real life treatment of the analog of the player conduct in a real society.

Were a real life band to conspire to affect markets by systematically attacking mining operations, there is ample precedent to recognize that governments and international organizations would act.

The grounds to do so are numerous.

  • Systematic attacks on the unarmed
  • Collusion to manipulate market dynamics
  • Collusion to destroy an entire class of entity


We would see concerted action on multiple fronts from the US, the EU, and the UN. Antitrust hearings. Courts and tribunals. Resolutions and committees.

CCPs response in the role of the international arbitration? Absent.

A Simple Response

I would suggest the response is simple and two pronged.


  1. Concord notices the drop in the markets and in order to ensure the supposed stability of the universe, have placed a couple of concord ships resident in high sec asteroid belts only in addition to their current locations.

  2. CCP begins warning and taking action against blatant high sec offenders.


Anecdotal evidence has already started to surface of player discontent with allowing these actions to remain unpunished and indeed unrestrained. I question how long CCP will wait to allow bands of players to flagrantly collude to ignore intended game mechanics and deny greater segments of the player base the enjoyment of the chosen virtual profession that keeps the real-life game revenue coming in.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13674431
Welp, it appears your plea went unanswered.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#605 - 2012-06-16 19:44:33 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13674431
Welp, it appears your plea went unanswered.


API please.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#606 - 2012-06-16 19:49:01 UTC
Look at all that rock.
Powers Sa
#607 - 2012-06-16 20:01:49 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13674431
Welp, it appears your plea went unanswered.


API please.

As soon as he wakes up, I'll get him to add it.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#608 - 2012-06-16 20:08:02 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13674431
Welp, it appears your plea went unanswered.


API please.

As soon as he wakes up, I'll get him to add it.


Wonderful. I've been disapoint with KMs in the past that turned out to never be verified or fell victim to the BPCs in cans are BPOs bug.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#609 - 2012-06-16 20:11:47 UTC
Ganks are part of the game, learn to deal.

However, the Sandbox arguement.

In this sandbox you can do anything you want, as long as you're willing to deal with the after effects. Fair enough, Gankers do, when concord comes and removes their ship. Cool.

My question, is why are players allowed to bypass the ratting process thats built into the game for a reason? Is being able to gank in high sec while -10 really working as intended? Shouldn't you be forced to deal with your action by ratting?

Until of course you can buy back your sec off carebear ratters, but until then, -10 players are kinda bypassing a game mechanic. I say kinda as npcs have spawn times that allow -10 travel time.

I wonder if Crimewatch 2.0 will make this a moot point.

Just thinking out loud, as a -10 player, i would be upset if I wasn't allowed to travel in high sec anymore. Though it has been sometime since I saw the brightlights or a trade hub.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Pirokobo
Game.Theory
GameTheory
#610 - 2012-06-16 20:18:57 UTC
Quote:

Quote:
"Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy. "


-http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp

The terms of service at http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp specifically forbids role playing that interferes with others enjoyment of the game as well as forbidding conduct which disallows others to enjoy the game.


We're not roleplaying.

We really are a******s. Pirate

And we're enabling a lot of people TO enjoy the game. At your expense.
Powers Sa
#611 - 2012-06-16 20:27:01 UTC
Pirokobo wrote:


We're not roleplaying.

We really are a******s. Pirate

And we're enabling a lot of people TO enjoy the game. At your expense.


((OOC:
I highly disagree with this jerk

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

Strike The Moons
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#612 - 2012-06-16 20:27:05 UTC
Dimitryy
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#613 - 2012-06-16 21:37:01 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:
I do not live in my mother's basement.

I am fortunate enough to have full time employment as a fairly successful Solution Architect for a Global consulting firm. I play from a custom built home office and hotels all over the United States. My identity is defined as a father, a husband, and a businessman. Eve has woven itself in as an on-again, off-again diversion where for the last three years I can apply business acumen and some custom tools to build an industrial marketer and manufacturer.

Eve is a fun low pressure environment where I make the conscious choice to forgo combat and low sec rewards to maintain the low stress nature of this pursuit.

Recently, I was killed mining and even podded in high sec. Losses in my ship of 300mil plus, implant losses of something on the order of a billion and change. Why? Because CCP has chosen by its inaction to allow a loose coalition of players to reward collective behavior against the engineered system of penalties and policies that are intended to make high security zones a low risk, low reward environment.



I live in my mother's basement.

I am fortunate enough to have part time employment as a minimum wage cleaning architect for a global cleaning firm. I play from a mass produced home desk and from outside buildings with wifi all over my town.

Recently i killed and podded in highsec. Losses in somebody's ship of 300mil plus implant losses of something on the order of a billion and change. Why? Because CCP has chosen by its inaction to allow a vast sea of players to reward individual behavior against the engineered system of risks and rewards that are intended to make high sec a low risk, low reward environment.

Eve is a fun high pressure environment where i make the conscious choice to enjoy combat and low sec rewards to maintain the high stress nature of this pursuit.

I petition CCP to consider the vast piles of isk that inaction to date represent, and also suggest a system of natural consequences which may be of use in curbing such competitions like 'lvl 4 missions' and 'risk free mining' - or at least limit them to the low and null sec systems where they belong.

Dimi
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#614 - 2012-06-17 00:20:14 UTC
Dimitryy wrote:
I petition CCP to consider the vast piles of isk that inaction to date represent, and also suggest a system of natural consequences which may be of use in curbing such competitions like 'lvl 4 missions' and 'risk free mining' - or at least limit them to the low and null sec systems where they belong.

let's not be too extreme now...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Deity Aiur
Boris Johnson's Love Children
#615 - 2012-06-17 00:35:13 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You are investing time into something you don't really understand, Mr. Successful Real-Life Businessman Married With Children.

You see, this is a video game that focuses on conflict, scamming, violence, murder, and sociopathy. This is not a family-friendly pastime created for the enjoyment and benefit of working family men to unwind after a hard day of shaking hands and having power lunches.


Legendary post is legendary.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#616 - 2012-06-17 01:42:49 UTC
Strike The Moons wrote:


I still really want to see the magical API verification before I can celebrate.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Strike The Moons
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#617 - 2012-06-17 05:20:24 UTC
I added my API to eve-kill. However long it takes to verify is it's own business.To celebrate I found a missioning apoc (terrible fit, meta tank mixed guns naturally) and dealt with him as well. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13675326
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#618 - 2012-06-17 06:13:15 UTC
Strike The Moons wrote:
I added my API to eve-kill. However long it takes to verify is it's own business.To celebrate I found a missioning apoc (terrible fit, meta tank mixed guns naturally) and dealt with him as well. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13675326


How is it valid shooting your own Corpmate? That fail-fit Apoc looks like a setup too. That wasn't a gank, that was an arrangement.
San Severina
One Point 0
#619 - 2012-06-17 06:14:47 UTC
I have never been a pirate or hi-sec ganker but I do find these heart-felt appeals to CCP from disgruntled miners incredibly juicy & delicious.

Ahahaha, suck it up OP, you lose.

Would of Warcraft --> etc etc.

LolLol
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#620 - 2012-06-17 07:29:55 UTC
It's a troll, i remember the name.