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A Plea for Rationale in the System of Natural Consequences
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#361 - 2012-05-29 10:59:11 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Suicide Ganking recently got nerfed too. Insurance stopped paying. That's why we use destroyers instead of Thoraxes and Brutixes.



Indeed, this actually hurt my wallet as I had some nice BPOs (I make money selling minerals, selling mining ships AND selling gank ships, this is why I have a really neutral vision, I make money anyway).

But what changed?

What changed is the name of the ship (find Brutix replace with Catalyst).
Then they indeed removed insurance making but replacing a gank ship with one that does NOT need an insurance to still be vastly profitable achieved to change nothing.

I mean - once again - they changed everything in order to not change anything.

From

loot value > more gank cost + insurance

to

loot value > less gank cost (< loot value)


The change has been "neutral" to the outcome, it's not a real nerf except on the BPO holders.

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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#362 - 2012-05-29 10:59:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ten Bulls wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Everyone makes tradeoffs. Miners have simply decided that 2x MLU Hulk is the baseline for mining in a Hulk and started making arguments from that false premise. The baseline for a Hulk is 0 MLUs.


So 8500 ships blew up in Hulkageddon because of bad fits eh... nothing to do with the ships baseline attributes, its the fitting thats totally to blame.

Try and be objective, you might find it enlightening.


Out of 600 hulks and macs that we killed in the caladri ice interdiction not a single one was tanked. So I fully belive that 99% of killed miners have little to no tank fitted.



And if they do you bring in more guns. Roll In the end the miner always loses.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#363 - 2012-05-29 11:01:10 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's understandable.
You don't shout at the burger flipper boy at how he sucks at high abstract mathematics, do you? He earns a crap wage, he does his thing. If he had to learn something requiring much more study and professionalism then you can stay sure he will ask a *multiple* of the wage.

Since minerals will not rise by 5 times, then you get the high resistance to adapt to a much more (orders of magnitude) skillful and effort game play.



I'd shout at him if he were using a solid gold spatula.

And he'd rightly tell you to GTFO because he's not paid to bring in the correct spatula, he's using what he's been given by his superior, go blame the superior.


[quote=RubyPorto]
You don't have to be invulnerable, just less vulnerable than the other guy in the belt.

If you're not happy with the ISK/effort you get while mining, don't mine. If you are happy with it, stop whining.


Patently false. You might refer to hobbyst gankers, the real ones play exactly like miners: they strip the belt.
Miners strip the belt off minerals, real suicide gankers have their own logistics so they stay there and get up to 70 kills before moving on. Covetor, Retriever, Hulk, Mackinaw they are all fair game, they don't need to care about who is weaker because it just maps to 1 less catalyst to warp in, that's it.


If they're stripping the belt, unless you're unlucky and are the first hulk hit, just warp off when you see hulks blowing up around you.

Regardless, my point stands. If you are unhappy taking the risk of mining in a Hulk during Hulkageddon, don't mine in a Hulk during Hulkageddon. Mine in something else or don't mine.

You're using a solid gold spatula to flip burgers at McDonalds. No wonder you're getting mugged.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#364 - 2012-05-29 11:01:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Either make modifications to the game so that we get 8500 Hulk AND 8500 Tengu / CNR killmails or else it's unfair risk vs reward.



What "modifications" do you think are needed? Your averatge mission Tengu has about the same EHP as a tanked up Hulk, and costs 2-5 times as much. If you want to run a 'Tengugeddon' event then go for it - stepping up and organising it is the only "modification" that's required.

Personally I think that would be great. LP prices have sunk dramatically lately and I could do with some competition removing.


Sadly I don't have the time to organize that. I could toss some sponsorship money though. Pirate

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#365 - 2012-05-29 11:05:56 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
If they're stripping the belt, unless you're unlucky and are the first hulk hit, just warp off when you see hulks blowing up around you.

Regardless, my point stands. If you are unhappy taking the risk of mining in a Hulk during Hulkageddon, don't mine in a Hulk during Hulkageddon. Mine in something else or don't mine.

You're using a solid gold spatula to flip burgers at McDonalds. No wonder you're getting mugged.


I am not talking about Hulkageddon, all the things I described above happened in the past months.
Also, "belt stripping" is something that happens on multiple systems (look at how Bat Country work) so there's not really a lot that can be done except stopping.

Also, you might as well stop talking like *I* am mining in an Hulk. The only mining ship I can fly is a Bantam.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#366 - 2012-05-29 11:07:16 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Suicide Ganking recently got nerfed too. Insurance stopped paying. That's why we use destroyers instead of Thoraxes and Brutixes.



Indeed, this actually hurt my wallet as I had some nice BPOs (I make money selling minerals, selling mining ships AND selling gank ships, this is why I have a really neutral vision, I make money anyway).

But what changed?

What changed is the name of the ship (find Brutix replace with Catalyst).
Then they indeed removed insurance making but replacing a gank ship with one that does NOT need an insurance to still be vastly profitable achieved to change nothing.

I mean - once again - they changed everything in order to not change anything.

From

loot value > more gank cost + insurance

to

loot value > less gank cost (< loot value)


The change has been "neutral" to the outcome, it's not a real nerf except on the BPO holders.


I pointed out the insurance Nerf to point out the fact that it's not a buff to the Hulk/nerf to the Gankers that the miners want, it's the banning of the practice of suicide ganking entirely. The calls for buffs/nerfs are just the baby steps they're trying to get through on the way.

You got gankers nerfed (it now costs ~15m or so to kill a tanked Hulk when it used to cost ~10m in an insured Brutix). You're not happy with that. You got miners income buffed (Drone poop nixed, a good thing overall), and you're not happy with that.

Years ago, you got CONCORD buffed to what it is today (before the buff, Suicide Ganks involved a lot less suicide), and you're not happy with that.

If we buff Hulks, whaddya wanna bet you won't be happy with that?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#367 - 2012-05-29 11:09:48 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
If they're stripping the belt, unless you're unlucky and are the first hulk hit, just warp off when you see hulks blowing up around you.

Regardless, my point stands. If you are unhappy taking the risk of mining in a Hulk during Hulkageddon, don't mine in a Hulk during Hulkageddon. Mine in something else or don't mine.

You're using a solid gold spatula to flip burgers at McDonalds. No wonder you're getting mugged.


I am not talking about Hulkageddon, all the things I described above happened in the past months.
Also, "belt stripping" is something that happens on multiple systems (look at how Bat Country work) so there's not really a lot that can be done except stopping.

Also, you might as well stop talking like *I* am mining in an Hulk. The only mining ship I can fly is a Bantam.


Ok, so you're claiming that it's impossible to reasonably escape a suicide gank attempt without trying it yourself? Really?


Anyway, the miners are using a Solid Gold Spatula to flip burgers at a McDonalds in South Central LA, and expressing surprise and anger when they get robbed.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#368 - 2012-05-29 11:12:56 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

so why should we believe that you'd stop whining if the Hulk got an EHP buff?


Game balance is about balancing gameplay, not balancing whining.
Jeniam Retriat
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#369 - 2012-05-29 11:14:52 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
A cheapfit Catalyst is around 5m. 25m isk to gain ~10m in loot for a tanked hulk sounds like a great deal to me too.

EDIT: A Meta 0 Catalyst is 2m. Unfortunately it doesn't fit on CPU. Silly Scram.


Where do you do your shopping? Looking on EVE Central, with a little bit of shopping around you can get a Cata hull for 1-1.2 million ISK, 3x meta2 Linear Flux Stabilisers for about 74k each, 1x meta0 Warp Scram for 50k (which incidentally you only need on one gank cata, not all 5) and 8x meta1 Regulated Light Neutron Phase Cannons for 60k each. Caldar Navy Antimatter is about 666 ISK per round, so being optimistic and going with 15 rounds per gun is about 80k. That adds up to 1.8-2.0 million, and it fits just fine with Weapon Upgrades 4 alone.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#370 - 2012-05-29 11:20:10 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Either make modifications to the game so that we get 8500 Hulk AND 8500 Tengu / CNR killmails or else it's unfair risk vs reward.



What "modifications" do you think are needed? Your averatge mission Tengu has about the same EHP as a tanked up Hulk, and costs 2-5 times as much. If you want to run a 'Tengugeddon' event then go for it - stepping up and organising it is the only "modification" that's required.

Personally I think that would be great. LP prices have sunk dramatically lately and I could do with some competition removing.


Sadly I don't have the time to organize that. I could toss some sponsorship money though. Pirate



Well I'm sure if you contact Helicity, he'll be at least willing to discuss the idea.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#371 - 2012-05-29 11:20:17 UTC
Jeniam Retriat wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
A cheapfit Catalyst is around 5m. 25m isk to gain ~10m in loot for a tanked hulk sounds like a great deal to me too.

EDIT: A Meta 0 Catalyst is 2m. Unfortunately it doesn't fit on CPU. Silly Scram.


Where do you do your shopping? Looking on EVE Central, with a little bit of shopping around you can get a Cata hull for 1-1.2 million ISK, 3x meta2 Linear Flux Stabilisers for about 74k each, 1x meta0 Warp Scram for 50k (which incidentally you only need on one gank cata, not all 5) and 8x meta1 Regulated Light Neutron Phase Cannons for 60k each. Caldar Navy Antimatter is about 666 ISK per round, so being optimistic and going with 15 rounds per gun is about 80k. That adds up to 1.8-2.0 million, and it fits just fine with Weapon Upgrades 4 alone.


I shop in pyfa. I cba to price out every little thing.

So 10m worth of ships to kill a hulk that drops an average of ~10m isk.
5 people spending at least 15m (GCC cooldown limits the rate of ganking) to maybe break even, or if they're very lucky (20m drop), make 2m each (compensating for a bad loot drop earlier, maybe).

Sounds really profitable.

You can't legitimately add in the GSF bounty, because that's a player run event, and not something that you can use for a balance argument.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#372 - 2012-05-29 11:22:16 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

so why should we believe that you'd stop whining if the Hulk got an EHP buff?


Game balance is about balancing gameplay, not balancing whining.


And the Gameplay is fine. Hulks give up defensive ability to gain a little more yield.

Before Barges and Exhumers were released, mining battleships ruled the roost. That's what the baseline is for mining. Hulks are higher yield, lower tank than the baseline.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#373 - 2012-05-29 11:24:20 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ten Bulls wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Everyone makes tradeoffs. Miners have simply decided that 2x MLU Hulk is the baseline for mining in a Hulk and started making arguments from that false premise. The baseline for a Hulk is 0 MLUs.


So 8500 ships blew up in Hulkageddon because of bad fits eh... nothing to do with the ships baseline attributes, its the fitting thats totally to blame.

Try and be objective, you might find it enlightening.


Out of 600 hulks and macs that we killed in the caladri ice interdiction not a single one was tanked. So I fully belive that 99% of killed miners have little to no tank fitted.



And if they do you bring in more guns. Roll In the end the miner always loses.



Damb those filthy gankers, always adapting like they think they're somebody

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#374 - 2012-05-29 11:26:50 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Before Barges and Exhumers were released, mining battleships ruled the roost. That's what the baseline is for mining. Hulks are higher yield, lower tank than the baseline.
Well… higher yield and higher tank. But close enough.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#375 - 2012-05-29 11:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Tippia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Before Barges and Exhumers were released, mining battleships ruled the roost. That's what the baseline is for mining. Hulks are higher yield, lower tank than the baseline.
Well… higher yield and higher tank. But close enough.


Before the new CPU rigs, a Rokh had a spare low that couldn't be filled with a MLU, so a Co-Proc and tank could be fitted.

(Though I don't remember when MLUII were introduced vs barges/exhumers, my point stands for MLUIs as well)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#376 - 2012-05-29 11:42:55 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Before the new CPU rigs, a Rokh had a spare low that couldn't be filled with a MLU, so a Co-Proc and tank could be fitted.
I'm just reading cross-eyed today. You were quite right. Ugh

Aaaanyway…
Elessa Enaka
Doomheim
#377 - 2012-05-29 11:57:50 UTC
@OP

Ok, your mistake was in drawing a real-life comparison, you should've compared it to a fairly recent set of events-- the calls for Incursions to be beaten to death with the nerfbat. Those Incursion runners were doing something fairly comparable with their farming of Vanguards. They were also abiding by the rules of the Sandbox which many seem all too eager to invoke in the defense of ganking, but when the Incursion runners were doing it, they were witch hunted for it.

Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats....
Jeniam Retriat
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2012-05-29 12:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeniam Retriat
RubyPorto wrote:
I pointed out the insurance Nerf to point out the fact that it's not a buff to the Hulk/nerf to the Gankers that the miners want, it's the banning of the practice of suicide ganking entirely. The calls for buffs/nerfs are just the baby steps they're trying to get through on the way.

You got gankers nerfed (it now costs ~15m or so to kill a tanked Hulk when it used to cost ~10m in an insured Brutix). You're not happy with that. You got miners income buffed (Drone poop nixed, a good thing overall), and you're not happy with that.

Years ago, you got CONCORD buffed to what it is today (before the buff, Suicide Ganks involved a lot less suicide), and you're not happy with that.

If we buff Hulks, whaddya wanna bet you won't be happy with that?


I am a miner, I do not want to get rid of suicide ganking. There are plenty of other miners who understand the nature of the sandbox and the risks and accept that, and even enjoy it. Incidentally we'd prefer you didn't lump us in with idiots like the OP who do want to make hisec 'safe' and get rid of ganking.

As to the rest of your points, there is a connecting theme with why miners aren't happy; it's still possible to suicide gank our ships and turn a profit, even if we're fitting them defensively. The insurance nerf didn't mean that players had to choose between not ganking and ganking in a Brutix at an ISK loss, it meant they had to choose between easily ganking in a Brutix at an ISK loss or ganking in a Catalyst with a couple of friends/alts and still breaking even or making a profit. Same with the CONCORD buff and same with the complaints/requests for tougher mining ships we have now.

RubyPorto wrote:
Anyway, the miners are using a Solid Gold Spatula to flip burgers at a McDonalds in South Central LA, and expressing surprise and anger when they get robbed.


That's what the OP is doing, sure. The rest of us are asking why our profession is the only one that got handed the Solid Gold Spatula, and why we can't just get a high quality Stainless Steel Spatula that performs the same job just as well but isn't a magnet for muggers. To put it more clearly, why is it that Mining is the only profession whose best ship is an automatic target for for-profit ganking even outside of Hulkageddon? If an L4 mission runner moves into one of their high end ships like a Navy Raven, that ship isn't automatically a target for gankers just for being used; you have to fit it out in high end deadspace/faction/officer mods before it's a target (would that be a gold-plated spatula?). A mission runner doesn't get in a Rattlesnake and get told that that ship is too valuable to use in hisec, or that they have to drastically alter their way of playing to use it without getting killed, or that they should just use a Dominix because it's a lot cheaper and only a bit worse, and yet that's exactly what happens to miners when they move from Covetors to Hulks.

RubyPorto wrote:
So 10m worth of ships to kill a hulk that drops an average of ~10m isk.
5 people spending at least 15m (GCC cooldown limits the rate of ganking) to maybe break even, or if they're very lucky (20m drop), make 2m each (compensating for a bad loot drop earlier, maybe).

Sounds really profitable.


Well, those 5 Catalysts will drop an average of about 4-500k ISK each in modules as well, so if they break even from the Hulk gank (and your numbers there aren't including the T2 salvage from the Hulk which could add a few more million in profit) they'd each be 4-500k better off overall. More to the point, the fact that there's no overall ISK cost for the ganks means there's no economic discouragement, like there is for every other ship.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#379 - 2012-05-29 12:58:49 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:



And if they do you bring in more guns. Roll In the end the miner always loses.


Only for big events like an interdiction or hulkageddon which offer more funding. Normal day to day ganks on tanked hulks happens rarely because there is no isk to be made.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#380 - 2012-05-29 13:20:14 UTC
Jeniam Retriat wrote:


RubyPorto wrote:
So 10m worth of ships to kill a hulk that drops an average of ~10m isk.
5 people spending at least 15m (GCC cooldown limits the rate of ganking) to maybe break even, or if they're very lucky (20m drop), make 2m each (compensating for a bad loot drop earlier, maybe).

Sounds really profitable.


Well, those 5 Catalysts will drop an average of about 4-500k ISK each in modules as well, so if they break even from the Hulk gank (and your numbers there aren't including the T2 salvage from the Hulk which could add a few more million in profit) they'd each be 4-500k better off overall. More to the point, the fact that there's no overall ISK cost for the ganks means there's no economic discouragement, like there is for every other ship.


You can alpha a 1bil tengu in a tornado and kill most transports in a destroyer. Like everything if you fit no defences and people can profitfrom your death they will go for it.