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Why are "generalized" t3's betters at "Specialization" Command ships at givi

First post
Author
Le Dei Opus
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-05-28 23:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Le Dei Opus
Viribus wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
with perfect skills and implants and heat, a tengu can project 1k dps to 100km. just sayin...


Show me this fit, then do the same to a proteus.


regular mission fit with +6 implants and faction BCUs. just use a t2 RoF rig.


895 DPS overheated with 6% plugs and furies. Sorry, try again. Under the same conditions, a proteus does 1475 dps.

Again, the assertion was that the "tengu does proteus dps out to 100km", which is so insanely stupid I don't see how anyone could defend it.

I believe this guy hasn't checked how many people fly t2 hacs (excluding the Zealot) and t2 bc's compared to t3's. The numbers for t3's are staggering, suggesting that something is wrong.

However it doesn't tell us whether or not T2's or bad or T3's are too good. However, something is still wrong and only PLEX children will deny it.

Only supporters of PAY-TO-WIN would try to defend the imbalance between t3's and t2's in the current state.
Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#62 - 2012-05-28 23:24:53 UTC
Le Dei Opus wrote:
I believe this guy hasn't checked how many people fly t2 hacs (excluding the Zealot) and t2 bc's compared to t3's. The numbers for t3's are staggering, suggesting that something is wrong.

However it doesn't tell us whether or not T2's or bad or T3's are too good. However, something is still wrong and only PLEX children will deny it.

Only supporters of PAY-TO-WIN would try to defend the imbalance between t3's and t2's in the current state.


Honestly I think the biggest "problem" is similar to the Titan issue.

I have to believe that CCP intended for T3's to be fairly uber. They are the ONLY ship that costs you isk AND SP when you die. Lose 4 HAC's and you are out some isk. Lose 4 T3's and you lose almost a month of training (assuming subs to 5).

The bigger issue, like Titan's is that people are making way more isk than expected. When T3's were introduced I would guess CCP expected their cost and SP loss factors would limit their use. Just like they never expected there to be so many Titan's in game.

Viribus
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#63 - 2012-05-28 23:41:00 UTC
Le Dei Opus wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
with perfect skills and implants and heat, a tengu can project 1k dps to 100km. just sayin...


Show me this fit, then do the same to a proteus.


regular mission fit with +6 implants and faction BCUs. just use a t2 RoF rig.


895 DPS overheated with 6% plugs and furies. Sorry, try again. Under the same conditions, a proteus does 1475 dps.

Again, the assertion was that the "tengu does proteus dps out to 100km", which is so insanely stupid I don't see how anyone could defend it.

I believe this guy hasn't checked how many people fly t2 hacs (excluding the Zealot) and t2 bc's compared to t3's. The numbers for t3's are staggering, suggesting that something is wrong.

However it doesn't tell us whether or not T2's or bad or T3's are too good. However, something is still wrong and only PLEX children will deny it.

Only supporters of PAY-TO-WIN would try to defend the imbalance between t3's and t2's in the current state.


So more expensive things shouldn't be better than less expensive things.

Also suggesting that only RMTers could afford T3s oh god I can't stop laughing
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#64 - 2012-05-29 00:07:03 UTC
Viribus wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
with perfect skills and implants and heat, a tengu can project 1k dps to 100km. just sayin...


Show me this fit, then do the same to a proteus.


regular mission fit with +6 implants and faction BCUs. just use a t2 RoF rig.


895 DPS overheated with 6% plugs and furies. Sorry, try again. Under the same conditions, a proteus does 1475 dps.

Again, the assertion was that the "tengu does proteus dps out to 100km", which is so insanely stupid I don't see how anyone could defend it.


you fail at eft. you also fail at arguments when trying to put words in my mouth.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-05-29 00:13:36 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
you fail at eft. you also fail at arguments when trying to put words in my mouth.


Then by all means, demonstrate (EFT or in-game) how a Tengu breaks 1K DPS at 100km. Or even provide a description of the fit (pro-tip: stacking penalties mean 4 BCUs + T2 RoF rig is about as good as it gets).
Viribus
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#66 - 2012-05-29 00:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Viribus
Daniel Plain wrote:
you also fail at arguments when trying to put words in my mouth.


Viribus wrote:
Again, the assertion was that the "tengu does proteus dps out to 100km", which is so insanely stupid I don't see how anyone could defend it.


I hate having to repeat myself because people on eve-o are too dumb to actually read posts before responding to them

Nowhere did I actually say that you said that, however you did come out and say it was possible, hence the "defend it" part

Christ it's like talking to a child


Mfume Apocal wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
you fail at eft. you also fail at arguments when trying to put words in my mouth.


Then by all means, demonstrate (EFT or in-game) how a Tengu breaks 1K DPS at 100km. Or even provide a description of the fit (pro-tip: stacking penalties mean 4 BCUs + T2 RoF rig is about as good as it gets).


The only way is with 4x Estamel BCS and both 6% dps implants, and heat.

Which is, of course, a totally reasonable comparison to a T2-fit proteus
Le Dei Opus
Doomheim
#67 - 2012-05-29 00:32:23 UTC
[quote=Viribus

So more expensive things shouldn't be better than less expensive things.

Also suggesting that only RMTers could afford T3s oh god I can't stop laughing[/quote]

One cruiser that costs more than another cruiser should win. However, when one t3 cruiser can solo 10 tier 1 cruisers or 5 tier 2 cruisers, even though that t3 cruiser costs more them all of them combined, it becomes a PAY-TO-WIN scenario.
Viribus
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#68 - 2012-05-29 00:37:09 UTC
I think you have no idea what "pay-to-win" means and if you think a single T3 can take on 5 T2 cruisers without the use of a multibillion-isk fit, links, and a set of expensive implants, I have bad news about your grasp of PVP in EVE: Online
Le Dei Opus
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-05-29 00:41:43 UTC
Viribus wrote:
I think you have no idea what "pay-to-win" means and if you think a single T3 can take on 5 T2 cruisers without the use of a multibillion-isk fit, links, and a set of expensive implants, I have bad news about your grasp of PVP in EVE: Online

SO youv[e never seen a 100mn Tengu in PvP? Either he kites and the cruisers die one at a time or the crusiers are smart and just disengage.

Also each time one of the cruisers die, his active tank becomes A LOT more effective, so once 2 of the 5 cruisers die, he can practically perma tank you
Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#70 - 2012-05-29 00:50:13 UTC
Le Dei Opus wrote:
Viribus wrote:
I think you have no idea what "pay-to-win" means and if you think a single T3 can take on 5 T2 cruisers without the use of a multibillion-isk fit, links, and a set of expensive implants, I have bad news about your grasp of PVP in EVE: Online

SO youv[e never seen a 100mn Tengu in PvP? Either he kites and the cruisers die one at a time or the crusiers are smart and just disengage.

Also each time one of the cruisers die, his active tank becomes A LOT more effective, so once 2 of the 5 cruisers die, he can practically perma tank you



Your point? I have also seen 100mn Tengu's DIAF.

The only ones I have ever seen be that successfull have billions tied up in their fits and implants and have a loki booster for added speed and point range.

I have also seen a nano drake solo at least that many ships, with the addition of some fast frigates and BC's chasing him down. Pretty sure he had an offgrid booster as well.

Yes 100mn tengu's can be a tough nut to crack. But they cost tons of isk, are not "I win" buttons by any means. Without links to get a super long point they have to risk getting very close to tackle range themselves. They can't turn for crap and can be easily caught if the pilot is not extremely experienced.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#71 - 2012-05-29 00:58:58 UTC
Strategic cruisers are designed as modular ships, allowing the pilot to configure subsystems according to need, rather than the usual fitting what you think will work.

Oh, and Tengu.
Viribus
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#72 - 2012-05-29 01:01:36 UTC
Le Dei Opus wrote:
Viribus wrote:
I think you have no idea what "pay-to-win" means and if you think a single T3 can take on 5 T2 cruisers without the use of a multibillion-isk fit, links, and a set of expensive implants, I have bad news about your grasp of PVP in EVE: Online

SO youv[e never seen a 100mn Tengu in PvP? Either he kites and the cruisers die one at a time or the crusiers are smart and just disengage.

Also each time one of the cruisers die, his active tank becomes A LOT more effective, so once 2 of the 5 cruisers die, he can practically perma tank you


I've actually flown a 100mn tengu. It's a good ship with snakes, links, and loki boosts, and a bad ship without. It also has a lot of weaknesses like the fact that it takes 30 seconds to turn around, as already pointed out (I nearly died because of this once), the lack of a utility high for a neut and drone bay for ECM drones makes you extremely vulnerable to light tackle (also almost died because of this, if I didn't have snakes I would have). HMLs with only one web aren't actually that effective against ceptors. Their poor agility also makes it really easy for your target to break your orbit and escape, or intercept your path and apply their own tackle. Oh, and if your AB is on and you get surprised by local spiking, or a hotdrop, or a decloaking rapier, you basically can't warp out until your (15 second duration) AB cycle is finished, and that's assuming you're pointed at something you can warp out to. They're much more vulnerable to surprises than MWD kiting ships.

But crybabies will continue to cry and be babies about 100mn tengus because they're a good counter to mindless drake/cane blobs (and extremely risky against anyone competent), so people who have no PVP experience outside of drakes and canes will get the mistaken impression that 100mn tengus are overpowered.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#73 - 2012-05-29 01:01:44 UTC
Viribus wrote:

Nowhere did I actually say that you said that, however you did come out and say it was possible, hence the "defend it" part

so... i didn't say it, but i did say it? kids these days...

and as for the fit

I should buy an Ishtar.

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#74 - 2012-05-29 01:05:05 UTC
Viribus wrote:




I know you idiots think the tengu is overpowered because you look at EFT stats and don't actually consider the practical limitations and vulnerabilities of the ship but do you really have to straight-up make **** up out of thin air? It makes you look stupid(er).
3. Because it's a cruiser.
4. Because it costs over twice as much
5. Because it's a cruiser



you make me lol, keep failing bro.





Viribus
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#75 - 2012-05-29 01:28:14 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Viribus wrote:

Nowhere did I actually say that you said that, however you did come out and say it was possible, hence the "defend it" part

so... i didn't say it, but i did say it? kids these days...

and as for the fit


Doesn't even approach a proteus, keep trying though, I'm sure one day you'll get it
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#76 - 2012-05-29 01:39:33 UTC
idiot eft warriors are strong in the thread!!!!!!!!
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-05-29 02:40:02 UTC
good lord this thread when to crap fast...

There is no Bob.

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Jace81
Sacred Sacrifice
#78 - 2012-05-29 02:43:59 UTC
That's what happens when name calling starts want some pop corn?
PavlikX
Rezeda Core
Rezeda Regnum
#79 - 2012-05-29 04:06:43 UTC
The main problemm here (imo) that T3 cruisers demands much less skills then, let say, comand ships. More DPS, more tank, no one flies CS seriously, especially is solo. Meantime those boats are single T2 battlecruisers firstly, and in this role they must be the best (i know that their main role is not dps boat, but i see no problemm with adding more damage bonuses to All CS's, let say +35% to main weapons damage as role bonus). T3 ships must have much more skills than T2 ships in situation when they are better then T2. How to fix it without wiping out thousands of Tengu pilots? I don't know exactly.
It is not single problemm with allmightiness of the Tengu - better shield, multy damage, low cap usage to open fire....

First of all CCP must rework existing ships, and only then implement new ones. They done big mistake - they was too hurry with implementation of T3, cutting out entire groups of T2 ships (especially with "wrong" types of weapons and damage).
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2012-05-29 04:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Archimedes Eratosthenes
Personally I believe T3's are a good template as to all how all T1 ships should be rebalanced, with the T2's gaining an edge in the role of specialization over their T1 counterpart and the T3's simply becoming better at "everything" that the hull size/race is supposed to be good at in general, but still not gaining that particular edge over the T2 ship.

If the above was implemented, which I believe to be CCP's intention then the prices of T2's and T3's also need to come down drastically.

Many people think the T1 frig buffs were OP because they became better (or at least more cost effective) than pirate/faction/t2 frigs. I'd agree with them, but that simply means the "better" frigs should be improved upon as well and leave the T1 changes EXACTLY as they are.

CCP started really good with their t1 buffs. Balancing frigates FIRST is the key to balancing all other ships. We must start from the bottom and go up.