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Large Railguns: Maximizing DPS

Author
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#1 - 2011-09-17 10:39:58 UTC
Before we get to the heart of the matter, just to be perfectly clear:

Yes, I know blasters have way better damage output. I am building a sniper fit.

I think I will not get any arguments when I say that railgun damage output is somewhat sub-par. Personally I think it is not too bad a tradeoff for being able to shoot as far as you can with them. However, it is an interesting task to try and maximize the damage you can do with them.

Now my question is, what support modules and/or rigs have you successfully used to make them more effective?

Apart from the obvious choice of one or more Magnetic Field Stabilizers to increase raw DPS, that is. Sometimes in practice counter-intuitive module choices have been known to give good results. That's what I am looking for.

Some stupid questions to get you started:

- What about target painters? (afaik only good for guns with high falloff)
- Tracking Speed scripts? (not much need when your target flies straight towards you)
- ...


Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

Zenith Intaki
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-09-17 10:50:18 UTC
I did have tons of fun years back in Amamake flying sniper rokh. Pods podded, T1 haulers gone. Fun times. Then FW came and they started blobbing me Sad
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#3 - 2011-09-17 11:01:18 UTC
I currently fly a Kronos with Rails, and am quite happy with it. It does exactly what it's meant to do, namely pick off almost anything at 120+ km. Combined in a gang with a close-up damage dealer, it can be real fun.

On the Kronos I have two Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizers, which bring EFT dps to 323 without drones, T2 425mm turrets and Spike L ammo. In practice of course, that figure varies a LOT.

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#4 - 2011-09-17 11:25:48 UTC
Kind of counter-intuitive, and kind of goes against sniping (seems you want that mostly) but useing antimatter or uranium (short rang high dps ammo) with two tracking comps with range scripts is kind of nice to do. Mostly use that for missions no idea for the pvp.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#5 - 2011-09-17 11:31:19 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Kind of counter-intuitive, and kind of goes against sniping (seems you want that mostly) but useing antimatter or uranium (short rang high dps ammo) with two tracking comps with range scripts is kind of nice to do. Mostly use that for missions no idea for the pvp.


I'll try that, I have space for at least one Tracking Comp in mids, for a testrun I can free a second. I think it's a good idea to use the short range ammo and make it shoot out farther, thanks!

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

Uriel Winston
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-09-17 11:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriel Winston
first of all lets clarify that flyinga marauder for pvp is a bad choice. now that we are off that

somewhat decent fit, neuts are to get rid of that pesky dramiel-inty that will try to point you and with uranium ammo you get 77+58 which are pretty neat for gate camping at 120km (carry antimatter always)

YES its a loot pinata if it dies it'll make a happy happy pirate.
you COULD use a megathron or Navy mega with same-better effect... but if you really want that kronos be my guest

[Kronos, PvP sniper]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Warp Disruptor II
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5

Edit: you may need/want to change the point-web for a sebo or just get implants for target range
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#7 - 2011-09-17 11:55:13 UTC
Uriel Winston wrote:
first of all lets clarify that flying a marauder for pvp is a bad choice. now that we are off that

somewhat decent fit, neuts are to get rid of that pesky dramiel-inty that will try to point you and with uranium ammo you get 77+58 which are pretty neat for gate camping at 120km (carry antimatter always)

YES its a loot pinata if it dies it'll make a happy happy pirate.
you COULD use a megathron or Navy mega with same-better effect... but if you really want that kronos be my guest


Oh don't worry, I'm not going to take the Kronos out to PvP - that ship is for my carebear missioning moments. Your choice of ammo + mods is interesting though, those two tracking enhancers and the one tracking comp make for great optimal and falloff range... You are left with with not much tank, but no argument there - it's a PvP fit.

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

Uriel Winston
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-17 12:12:52 UTC
if you want to just pve with it you could change the:

plate, EANM, TCU for rep (deadspace C-type is great) and hardner x2 (rat wise)

point and t2 mwd for: another tracking comp (run either 2 unscripted or 2x range scripts) and x-type gist mwd *cheapish and no cap penalty*

drop the web if you feel a cap-booster is necessery (but web help your drones a lot to kill those elite frigs)

neuts go off for salvager-tractors

rigs: nanobot and nano pump.

cap stable with booster otherwise requires some micro management to not cap out.
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#9 - 2011-09-17 12:26:35 UTC
Uriel Winston wrote:
if you want to just pve with it you could change the:

plate, EANM, TCU for rep (deadspace C-type is great) and hardner x2 (rat wise)

point and t2 mwd for: another tracking comp (run either 2 unscripted or 2x range scripts) and x-type gist mwd *cheapish and no cap penalty*

drop the web if you feel a cap-booster is necessery (but web help your drones a lot to kill those elite frigs)

neuts go off for salvager-tractors

rigs: nanobot and nano pump.

cap stable with booster otherwise requires some micro management to not cap out.


That looks good, yes. I kept my current rigs instead of the ones you suggested, otherwise here's my current setup with your changes:

[Kronos, Initial]
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Gist X-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive

Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Drone Link Augmentor I
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot II x3
Hammerhead II x5

Cap stable without the MWD on, 465 DPS with Faction Uranium Ammo, 76+58 range.

Will try it out, with superior tracking and more DPS this should work quite well. Thanks!

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#10 - 2011-09-17 12:55:42 UTC
Was looking at the final fit, and was thinking how the kronos gets the 100% dps boost automatically, so really adding speed to the guns I think would be teh best way to improve your dps really. People may not like the rest, but the model I use really to help with improving dps, I always thought was smart. Is the arcanite reaper from WoW. Its a really slow, but hard hitting weapon, and when you used instant abilities, it undid the check of it being slow, and unleashed its true power or so. Suppose that is a bit wow, but look at kronos with huge dps bonus. Not sure with numbers basic gallente speed and percentages, not the slowest weapons really, but was imagining the speed helping the most with the ship's natural talents.

Fly the navy megathron which is an all around great ship, so hard to realy jib it well, (unless I could sneak in a nav comp without nerfing the fit). But the kronos seemed more role specific with that strong bonus.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-09-17 13:07:38 UTC
[troll on]
You can increase railgun damage by switching to artillery or beam turrets.
[/troll off]
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#12 - 2011-09-17 13:12:31 UTC
ugh the taste of bitterness from all our hard work being defeated so easily and so fast as well.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#13 - 2011-09-17 13:27:15 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Was looking at the final fit, and was thinking how the kronos gets the 100% dps boost automatically, so really adding speed to the guns I think would be teh best way to improve your dps really. People may not like the rest, but the model I use really to help with improving dps, I always thought was smart. Is the arcanite reaper from WoW. Its a really slow, but hard hitting weapon, and when you used instant abilities, it undid the check of it being slow, and unleashed its true power or so. Suppose that is a bit wow, but look at kronos with huge dps bonus. Not sure with numbers basic gallente speed and percentages, not the slowest weapons really, but was imagining the speed helping the most with the ship's natural talents.

Fly the navy megathron which is an all around great ship, so hard to realy jib it well, (unless I could sneak in a nav comp without nerfing the fit). But the kronos seemed more role specific with that strong bonus.


Yes, that makes sense - I am currently outfitting the ship with the fit above, which already adds more tracking with the two tracking enhancers in lows. I'll see if it makes a difference in practice, gut feeling says it should - but then again, if you have a target that is 120 km away and approaching your location tracking speed is not an issue since transversal velocity is almost nonexistent.

That changes once your target is in range, like rats that like to orbit you at 50+ km. Then the added tracking speed can make a big difference, provided you let them get that close :)

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#14 - 2011-09-17 13:53:43 UTC
rate of fire is what I meant sorry, wasnt using official terms. They got a big stock dps modifier, so making them cycle faster uses that more.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#15 - 2011-09-17 14:28:54 UTC
rodyas wrote:
rate of fire is what I meant sorry, wasnt using official terms. They got a big stock dps modifier, so making them cycle faster uses that more.


Yes, which is why using a rig like the Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I can help push the DPS a little further still - if you have the cap. I tried it on the fit above, it added 25 more DPS for a total of 429. I tried with a Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator as well, but that added just slightly less.

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#16 - 2011-09-17 14:35:24 UTC
Well that was a little bit of better, wish I had eft myself, too lazy sadly. Was wondering if you took of a tracking link for another megastab, then had like dps implants then a speed rig, if that is worth it at all or not. Seems like the more dps modifing then more speed at the end of it might help a bit, but I really dont know if overall if it is worth it just a shot.



I get jealous of shield tanks, so easy to put 4 equivalents of megastabs on the low slots.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-09-17 15:55:06 UTC
rodyas wrote:
megastabs on the low slots.

What is this megastab you speak of?
Is it like a magstab, but it makes hybrid turrets useful?

A megastab does sound fairly impressive. It would probably make your guns fire Rifters.
NoNah
Hyper-Nova
#18 - 2011-09-17 16:49:03 UTC
There's not all that many ways to improve rails, but these are pretty much it:

- Shield tank whatever ship you're flying.
    Nearly all ways to improve your damage are lowslot ones. The midslot ones ARE important, but often not as important. On top of this the shieldtanks are generally easier to fit, especially for active tanks meaning you can fit as large guns as possible. Fitting mods are also lowslot btw. The kronos is NOT a bad shieldtanker, nor is the domi or vindi.

- Tracking enhancers/tracking computer
    Tracking computers are superior to tracking enhancers while fighting inside optimal prior to the tracking units bonus. In all other cases the Tracking Enhancer is better as it adds a smaller bonus to tracking(than the scripted TC) but also adds optimal and falloff meanwhile. Optimal would of course be to use both or enough tracking computers to let the stacking penalty render an additional TC pointless. Sadly that is rarely possible and TE's tend to be the best option. See first point.

- Target Painters
    Really the one midslot module that really is good and midslot. It wont' suffer from any stacking penalties from any other kind of module(compare TE/TC), it gives a sizable bonus to tracking.

- Weapon Upgrades
    Obvious enough, get as many as you possibly can, for pve you should more or less always aim for 4, 3 should be considered a minimum. (Highend plexes, incursions, sleepers etc obviously excluded)

- Burst Aerator II
    Note the bolded suffix. The t1 rigs are nearly worthless, they will suffer the most severe of stacking penalties and being the fifth module and only affecting rate of fire(a normal weapon upgrade like magstab does both rate of fire and damage) means the total addition of dps is tiny and the drawbacks are huge as it not only steals the majority of your calibration it also makes fitting guns worse. While the same drawbacks apply to the t2 ones, the Rate of fire bonus is large enoguh to never be stacing penalized(it just pushes all the mag stabs rate of fire penalties one step down the ladder, the fourth magstab will have a rate of fire bonus as if it was the fifth). Hence, the added dps is quite noticable.

- Drones
    This part is far to commonly far to neglected. People have a tendency to divide ships into drone ships and gunships. While true in a way, it's also terribly wrong in another. All gallente ships however askewed their damage ratio maybe more or less needs both to perform even remotely decently. The domi being an excellent example as it will in the most effective f setups be roughly 50/50 in gun and drone damage output. The ishtar maybe something of an exception as it's quite limited in guns, but even there there's no reason to ignore them if you really do want to get damage out of your ship. If you're using rails this typically means as many sentries you can fit and one set of light drones to handle what you failed to take out in time.

- Speed
    If you can dictate range, you can apply damage. Having a long optimal is no excuse for not fitting an MWD, you will instead a ton of tracking issues to consider, you will still need to keep your opponents in said optimal and them getting either closer or further away will both hurt your damage application.

- Implants
    If you'll only be using one type of guns, there's no reason not to get a high percentage damage implant for it, and if you're using rails you might aswell get a all turret rate of fire implant aswell(it can be a tad dicey for lasers, and arties often want the alpha).

And that's pretty much it. There are tiny details such as keeping your heat down and all that, but in all honesty, it's negligible for now, you should have far more important things to consider. There are also other parts like webs, scramblers, neuts etc, the reason I didn't list them is simply that if you have to use them, you've already done something somewhat poorly. You shouldn't be using rails in scram, web or neut range.

Oh, and as for the hybrid sucks part, yes, they do, but sadly most gallente ships with anything but hybrids stinks far worse than they would with hybrids in the first place. While there are exceptions - ships like the myrm can do very well with AC's or even lasers - there are ships that perform very well with blasters, such as the daredevil or vindicator.