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New Inventory, CCP Hellmar response wanted.
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Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#41 - 2012-05-25 13:49:25 UTC
THE L0CK wrote:
Marcus Harikari wrote:
can i has your stuffs?



He can't figure out how to access it Big smile


lol
Kasriel
#42 - 2012-05-25 13:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasriel
Roime wrote:
It's the whole "calling out" part that I don't agree with. It's CCP's software, they have their reasons which don't really interest me that much, I'm just a customer and not a shareholder.


who should i want to answer for this then? the CEO of CCP made promises to the players, those promises are now being broken, he might not be responsible for the patch or the content directly but he IS responsible for the company as a whole and it's direction and as those promises are being broken. should a person not be held to their word?

Roime wrote:
If I go to a restaurant and get ****** food, I don't start screaming in front of other customers about it. I might choose another restaurant next time, probably not if I like the place.


no you ask to speak to the manager and talk to them like an adult. i'm not insulting anybody, not causing a scene, i'm using CCPs forums to contact a CCP employee and i'm being respectful about it.

Roime wrote:
If there's a long queue in the market, I don't feel I have the right to start yelling at the stressed clerk about it. I might choose another market next time, or come at another time.


i fail to see how that is applicable in this situation but that may be me. regardless it is always the customers RIGHT to complain to management, so long as they do so respectfully. especially if that manager stood infront of the store not that long before and promised to keep the queues short and plenty of people on the checkout.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-05-25 14:01:38 UTC
I just got of the phone with Hilmar and he said: "stop crying you man babies. we are looking into it".

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
#44 - 2012-05-25 14:01:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Roime wrote:
It was not an argument, it's a fact.
No, it's not. It's just blatant idiocy.
Quote:
Spamming the forums with whine is not exactly sentient behaviour either.
So stop doing it. You only reinforce the point.


Are you in your period?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#45 - 2012-05-25 14:03:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
“Unlike”? It's quite broken for us as well, you know — the “unlike for us” part is that they will have their issues fixed in short order, unlike us who have to live with this awful mess. It doesn't particularly matter what other groups agree or why — the simple fact remains that a fuckton of functionality was lost in the implementation of the new UI (and that's before counting the bugs and the performance issues).


Your subjective opinions aren't facts, no matter how many times you repeat them.

My subjective opinion is that no functionality was lost, but much new functionality was added. What I used to do is easier now, and there's stuff I couldn't do with the old inventory. Is this a fact? Might feel like it, but "I like" does not result in anything objective.

Bugs and performance issues are not subjective or arguable, they are facts. And we all want them fixed.

Quote:
…hence “blatant idiocy”. Here's why it's impossible to reason with them: because they're right and they know it. Reasoning with them is impossible because you're trying to convince them that the sky is pink-on-green polka-dot. You're arguing against reality. That doesn't make the people who are trying to “reason” with them trolls so much as late-term BSE victims.


No, they feel that they are right and can't see it any other way, due to aforementioned reasons. As to your sky analogy, all I'm saying that it's still blue, and not raining blood as they see it.

Quote:
Stick your head in a mulcher.


In-game, I suppose? Bear

.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-05-25 14:08:08 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I just got of the phone with Hilmar and he said: "stop crying you man babies. we are looking into it".


Posting stupid proves imbecilic.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-05-25 14:09:26 UTC
Roime wrote:
Your subjective opinions aren't facts, no matter how many times you repeat them.




I guess all the cancelling and cancelled accounts are just a subjective opinion as well.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2012-05-25 14:09:57 UTC
Roime wrote:
Your subjective opinions aren't facts, no matter how many times you repeat them.
The loss of functionality is fact, no matter how many times you try to think of it as opinion.

Whether you notice that or not doesn't change the fact that it's gone.

Quote:
No, they feel that they are right
No, they are right because, again, the loss of functionality is a matter of fact, not opinion.

Quote:
In-game, I suppose? Bear
Nah. But unlike CCP, I like options so I'll give you the option not to turn it on.
Wyehr
Magister Corp
#49 - 2012-05-25 14:10:23 UTC
Roime wrote:
Botters have a clear motivation to cause a shitstorm over this UI change. Unlike for us, the players, EVE really is broken for them. Their revenue-creating programs don't work, until their bots are fixed. These people undoubtedly masquerade here as butthurt players and aim to fuel the fire. They are not interested in CCP or playerbase, other than as a means of low-effort extra income.

Second group are players who really resist change, have difficulties in adapting, and just aren't very good with computers. When you combine this with serious entitlement delusions, inability to express opinions in a mature manner and internet anonymity, a rage of shitpoasting ensues. Their concerns, however, are legit, CCP could have at least released some videos on how to use the new UI, implemented tool-tip help or whatever is normally done to help people adapt, standard change management.

Third group, a minority among the whiners, are people who reveal bugs and inconsistencies in the UI and report them back to CCP. Why these were not handled properly before release is beyond us all, probably has a lot to do with Jon Lander and Inferno being his first expansion, ie. hammering things through for personal/career/ego/position reasons. Some of these, you included/especially, are opinion leaders. Many people follow them, and form their opinions based on the example shown by respected community members.

Fourth, and by far the largest group, are players who are indifferent to inventory interface changes or adapted to it at first sight. For them, or us, this forum rage is ridiculous, inflammatory to our gaming experience and when it reaches a point where reasoning with whiners becomes impossible, resort to trolling.


Wow. The majority of "whiners" (as you call them) are bots and curmudgeons?

And you came to this conclusion after reading the thousands of thread posts where dozens or hundreds of people have described in detail the specific things that they do in game that are now either much harder, more annoying, or simply impossible?

Some human/computer interfaces are objectively better than others, for some tasks. This one is better than the old one for some things, but much worse for others. In my opinion, it would have made a welcome addition to the old system, but it makes a lousy replacement for reasons that have been spelled out in detail many, many times over in threads going back to the first appearance in the test server.

I have little doubt that CCP will evolve this into a better system by listening to the complaints and emulating the elements of the old system that worked better. A huge step in that direction would be to return all of our old shortcuts (the corp hangar button, for example) and make them open windows with all (or most) of the new fluff disabled or hidden, and with persistence.

But when designing a replacement user interface, finding out how people actually use the existing one and what they like and dislike about it should be the first step, not the last. It might be too much to ask the guys working on the UI to also be able to quote every post from asktog.com from memory, but they'd sure better have read all of them at least once.
Kasriel
#50 - 2012-05-25 14:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasriel
Roime wrote:
Your subjective opinions aren't facts, no matter how many times you repeat them.

My subjective opinion is that no functionality was lost, but much new functionality was added. What I used to do is easier now, and there's stuff I couldn't do with the old inventory. Is this a fact? Might feel like it, but "I like" does not result in anything objective.


regardless of the UI and yours or mine feelings towards it, would you agree to the following three points?

that this release has been handled very poorly

that there are many people unsatisfied with the unified inventory

that putting an option in to enable people to use either UI would be a suitable compromise to solve the majority of the problems

remember being objective here (as i've attempted to be all through this thread)
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-05-25 14:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fabulousli Obvious
Kasriel wrote:

that this release has been handled very poorly

that there are many unsatisfied people with the unified inventory




Yeah. It's almost enough to drown out all the excitement and massive Threads about the New Missile Graphics. Almost enough. Lol

Nah....not botched at all.Evil

It is proving to be disastrous actually, to be honest.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#52 - 2012-05-25 14:21:44 UTC
Another whiner who hasn't figured out "shift+click".

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Kasriel
#53 - 2012-05-25 14:21:51 UTC
holy crap Fabulousli Obvious i had to read my own quote three times before i realised how badly written it was.. thank you
Kasriel
#54 - 2012-05-25 14:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasriel
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Another whiner who hasn't figured out "shift+click".


Oh look! another troll with no reading comprehension! go back and actually read it, i know i use a few big words but you should be fine, use a dictionary
Wyehr
Magister Corp
#55 - 2012-05-25 14:23:59 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Another whiner who hasn't figured out "shift+click".


Another troll who hasn't figured out how to read.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-05-25 14:27:25 UTC
Kasriel wrote:
holy crap Fabulousli Obvious i had to read my own quote three times before i realised how badly written it was.. thank you


Lol I missed it too. I'll take care of a few who are 'unsatisfied'.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#57 - 2012-05-25 14:28:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Shpenat wrote:
They did not "ignore" the feedback (I am aware that they actually ignored a Sisi feedback a bit completely).
There you go. Much better.


Not correct. If you go through the test server feedback channel you will find comments from devs that they feel people will not want to use multiple windows once they adapt to single one. I think that qualifies as "not ignoring the feedback". Granted that it is bad acting on feedback.

Tippia wrote:
Quote:
So which promise was broken?
The promise of an improved inventory management system. It will remain broken until the lost functionality is fully restored.

Also, the promise to listen to their customers. If they did, the UI wouldn't have been released before it was finished.



The OP was talking about Hilmar and his promises. I have no idea he ever gave promise of improved inventory system. Can you link please?

The promise to listen to their customers was not broken. They did reply to the threads. Listen to the customer is not same thing as be slave to the customer.
Sir Halfloaf
Irn Bru Crew
#58 - 2012-05-25 14:30:07 UTC
Kasriel wrote:
Roime wrote:
Your subjective opinions aren't facts, no matter how many times you repeat them.

My subjective opinion is that no functionality was lost, but much new functionality was added. What I used to do is easier now, and there's stuff I couldn't do with the old inventory. Is this a fact? Might feel like it, but "I like" does not result in anything objective.


regardless of the UI and yours or mine feelings towards it, would you agree to the following three points?

that this release has been handled very poorly

that there are many people unsatisfied with the unified inventory

that putting an option in to enable people to use either UI would be a suitable compromise to solve the majority of the problems

remember being objective here (as i've attempted to be all through this thread)


I have to agree , the new UI has made things that were simple (tech 2 building/inventing , looting wrecks and much more) a right royal PITA .
It makes it feel more like the stuff i do at work which isn't why i subscribe to eve .
I like the OP would like an answer as to why , we as Paying Customers, are being treated this way .
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#59 - 2012-05-25 14:33:12 UTC
Kasriel wrote:
Shpenat wrote:
Btw. did anyone of you actually read the last devblog?

They did not "ignore" the feedback (I am aware that they actually ignored a Sisi feedback a bit). They know there are some usability issues and are trying to fix them. So which promise was broken?


so they didn't ignore the feedback.. except for the WEEKs of feedback from SiSi?

they either did or didn't. and the fact that they ignored that SiSi feedback, pushed a buggy feature live and only started listening to peoples complaints after this shitstorm started is not communicating with your playerbase in any meaningful way, combined with the fact that they're ignoring those people who are making reasoned arguments for making this optional instead and are trying to force people to play is definitely not good communication



Go to the sisi feedback thread and have a look. There is a difference between ignoring and not acting upon the feedback. They even said what they think. That is not ignoring in my book.

Oh and when will you people learn that making core mechanics optional is not reasonable argument?
Kasriel
#60 - 2012-05-25 14:33:55 UTC
well as it's been two hours it seems that Hillmar and indeed any member of staff at CCP is either unable or unwilling to comment on the general clusterfuck that this patch has brought the foreground - for some at least - in public, perhaps privately? my email address is attached to this account, feel free to email me and we can discuss this privately, and hey if i leak it you can drop the banhammer on me can't you?

i seriously doubt this problem is going to go away just because you ignore it, i would hope that was made apparent with incarna